Elephants in Rooms
Hi, I’m Ken LaCorte. I spent 20 years behind-the-scenes at Fox News and now host “Elephants in Rooms”.
Here, we jump into topics that many people avoid and that the mainstream narrative often vilifies. Even when they’re true.
If you’re looking for true insight into issues – without straw men or sensationalism – you’ve found the right place.
Elephants in Rooms
John Moody | Former head of news at Fox News
Ken and John Moody talk about Roger Ailes, the early days of Fox News, the news media industry, what made America great.
John recently published "Of Course They Knew, Of Course They ..." — a decidedly non-PC fictionalized account of China and the coronavirus.
To see the video version of this podcast or to find Ken in the social world, click: https://linktr.ee/KenLaCorte
So I remember when I, I've worked for Roger, in the for for the Bush campaign. So this would have been the end of a what was the 88 campaign, so the end of end of 88. And literally, he let me and most of the other staff go before the end of the election, it was like, you know, because like a week out, they're like, Yeah, you can't make any more TV or radio ads for it. So they literally, like fired most of the people, including me. And, like, like, four days before the election, which was kind of weird timing, but whatever. And, and then I had gone and done my own thing. And, and he had made a low salary. But you know, I was, I was thrilled to have it. I mean, I was a, I was a Republican political consultant want to be in New York City, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of a whole lot of market opportunity for that. And then I went and I did my own own deal. Up in up in Westchester, I ran some of their legislative races and did some things and I, I made some money. And so then he had, he got hired on by Giuliani in in mid 89, the end of 89, which Giuliani first run for, for for for Mayor there and was getting his ass handed to him. And we got a heck of a lot closer, but but he still lost that first go around. And when Roger pulled me in, I was like, yeah, here's what I made, I can't take a pay cut. So literally, I got like a doubling of my offer, or a doubling of what I had made before for being gone for six months and doing all right. And what I probably didn't also figure out was there wasn't a whole lot of Republican young guys who wanted to work for Republican political consulting firm in Manhattan, right. And, and I to this day, I remember when he made the offer, I was on vacation, like a one day vacation to Vegas. And and I got my salary doubled on a payphone as I was I was in there, and I was like, it kind of made the the $50 or not, the$5 bets that I would put on a table in Vegas kind of meaningless at that point, even though, you know, now it's not serious money. You can do it. Yeah. See, see you wet so so you go to start up Fox. And and some of the early days. See, I came in there about a year, year and a half later. And I really wish I'd been one of the very first people because some of the stories that that you and Scott Ehrlich and some of the other ones who were told of you know, going into the SAM goodies down downstairs, the the early meetings, just like having zero resources and pulling these things pulling this off. Pretty cool. I mean, when I went there, nobody had heard of it still, they were like, What are you seeing? And I don't get it as a channel five. I mean, you know, we still had to do that for a few years. But it wasn't like the early early days. What are some of the things that pop out the most when you when you're in your when you're in your walker?
John Moody:So Scott Erlich will be able to confirm this story. He and I were told to go to a black tie dinner on behalf of the infant Fox News Channel. And it was one of those World War things. And Tom Brokaw was the emcee. Right? And Scott and I think were the only two people from Fox we could not afford, Fox could not afford an entire table. And so we were at one of those mishmash tables of various lowbrow news organizations. And Brokaw maids was was doing his his spiel. And basically what he said was, you know, well, we've why this, this, this event is so popular this evening. Some people hear from Fox News, we can't see them just like you can't see Fox News. And Scott, who is of course, much better attuned to Roger than I was, or ever will be, would be. He says to me, come we gotta go call him kobu We got to get a payphone we're gonna call Roger at home. So we call Roger at home and and Scott is giving him the details of what happened. And you can just see Scott going that's great. Oh, that's great. Oh, that's fucking great. And so we Scott course so Scott says, Do you have a pen because he didn't have a pattern? Yeah, I have a pen. Sure. The writer Yeah. And a pen and paper and so so he's writing something down. And then he says no, no, we have to go buy a card. Let's go buy a card. So the the Waldorf for some reason still had in store but then there was some postcard or greeting card with nothing in it. And and so we get this up to the Dyess the day a square Brokaw is and Scott hands it up and says Please give it to Mr. Broke off and broke off to his great credit. Read the card and he looks down Scotty goes, I will. I will. And he says, so he said, Oh, ladies and gentlemen, I've just received a communication from Roger Ailes, the chairman of Fox News. Calm. It said, you might not be able to see me, but I can see you love Roger.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, he had a way with fucking people over pretty. And interestingly. And
John Moody:it it just changed the way the event went. And suddenly everybody wanted to come up and say, Well, what channel you on? Well, we're not on in New York yet, but we expect to be soon. But it suddenly became a good story of David and Goliath.
Ken LaCorte:Interesting. Interesting. Did they laugh? Yeah.
John Moody:Yeah. So to his credit, Sony broke off.
Ken LaCorte:Wow, I mean, right, then you guys were still you were still a pipe dream annoyance. You weren't the hated the hated Fox News.
John Moody:They're just these little schmucks here from this place that we've never heard of, you know,
Ken LaCorte:it's kind of fun that we hitched our wagons to a news outlet that is probably more than any other. Well, now everybody loves and hates a lot, but certainly for the first 20 years, the most loved and the most hated news outlet in the country is that no doubt about
John Moody:it, no doubt about it, because it was different because it said exactly what it was going to do. And then did it. Right. And because we were kind of more honest with our viewers and than any of the other networks,
Ken LaCorte:where we were we have Fox the first one the first the first salvo in the destruction of the news industry, or the news industry in our in the past 10 years has gone from something that was had its had its filters had its bias had its wrongs, but was attempting to deliver a fair representation of the world. Right? And now they're more akin to this is the DNC pretending to be a newspaper. This is the RNC pretending to be a a TV station. I mean, they've gone to the mattresses, were we the first step forward, and that
John Moody:I think, can that you could honestly say that it's been a progression of almost half a century. And that goes back to newspapers like the New York Post before Murdoch owned it, it was it was still a shift paper at that point. With its smarty pants headlines, and then the daily The Daily News followed with that famous you know, headless corpse in topless bar, right. Headline. And, and you could just see the white shoe executives of these famous fabled news organizations horrified that someone would say the word ass in a news story or quote, somebody accurately, you know, the mobster said, if I find the son of a bitch, I'll kill it. Right? Well, no, you could not No, no, no, what would have to say is if I if I find that Mother Son So, and well, I believe Yeah. And, and so it was one of those funny things where the truth will set you free, but it also seeds chaos among everybody else. Now, when CNN came on the air in 1980 they sewed chaos among the three broadcast network news organizations because they were always on and and they proved their worth in Beijing the night of Tiananmen Square. And they proved it worth again in in Vietnam with the kind of footage that they were that they were showing and the first Gulf War Well of course the first Gulf War was there it was their high point and and the three bigs didn't know what to do. What how do you tell Peter Jennings that he has to do something different? And see and in those days Turner and you know, his his original lieutenants were not afraid to do stuff and like anybody else that you get calcified, you get bureaucratic, people start fighting for a senior in front of their their, you know, title, people start fighting for the office, this closest to the men's room. And, and it's also happening to Fox, right, um, but, but just success. You know, as Oscar Wilde said, Nothing succeeds like excess. Is, is the killer. Now, but Fox certainly played a role in the destruction of what another generation older than ours would call the news business.
Ken LaCorte:You Right. So, tell me about your relationship with Geraldo Rivera. Wow. Start at the beginning.
John Moody:I didn't want Roger to hire him. I, I said we I said we've got enough clowns in the circus. Remember, he was doing a show. We will call it an entertainment show, as well as pretending to be a news correspondent and finding, you know, Al Capone's treasure. Right. Um, and, and getting into fights with the contestants go, you know, smacking them on the air, literally. Yeah, literally. And, and I just didn't think that was a good match for what I envisioned Fox doing. What I didn't understand is that Roger and Geraldo have had an extremely long, paternal kind of friendship. And that Roger saved Geraldo many times before he ever came to Fox. Right. And that, that, that there was good that he was gonna come that he was coming, right. Like the sun morning, you can find it all you want, but it's gonna be up here. Right, right. And once he got here, I think I, I was wrong. I was mistaken to disparage him a couple of times. And of course, there's no such thing as a secret meeting. Everything gets back to everybody. Right. And he rightly, he rightly didn't like me for that and went to Roger and complained. Right? And wrote no to Roger, which Roger showed me.
Ken LaCorte:Roger was fucking great and horrific at that is like, Hey, that guy just said, You're an asshole. What do you like? Well, I think he's a jerk.
John Moody:And, and I went into Rogers office, and he showed me this. He said, Here, look what I just said. And it was gone. Modi is the least likable person human I've ever met? Wow. And I said, Well, yeah, at least at first in something. Like vice president. But and, and, again, it was a Roger teaching moment. Right? It look, he said, the guy is good television. He you know, no, he didn't go to J school. No, he did. And you know what, I love him for it for not going to J school. Right. He said that he and I believe it was the first time that I heard the expression. He he goes through the glass, which meant that the audience felt that Geraldo was sitting there in their room talking to them, not just on television acting like a big right right now. And so I, I really did try to amend my attitude and be appreciative of what Geraldo could do. He stretched everybody's patience. I mean, certainly when, when the US invaded Afghanistan, he got over there. And he probably gave away a US troop position completely by mistake. He certainly wasn't showing off. But I think that he made he wasn't showing off. I don't think that he was doing it on purpose. He wasn't intentionally trying to give away US troop positions. But he did. And we had a call in Rogers office from a general I believe, quite, I guess the right word would be miffed us. And but you could see that Roger, who took the very bravely took the call, and took the heat. said, Look, we're sorry, we apologize. We'll apologize on the air. We're Geraldo saying he's a good guy. He's my guy.
Ken LaCorte:Now from Rogers aspect, because I've heard the story and Rogers story and could be reality warped a little bit. He said that he spoke to a commander on the ground, and he asked him that question, did he give away your position? To which the guy said they're shooting at us? They know where we are? Is that
John Moody:which was not a direct answer to the question.
Ken LaCorte:Okay, okay. But it sounded like a no, they already know where we are. So how could they give away a position when they're shooting at us? And they see us here? I mean, that was at least his his, his was good. I remember that. Yeah. And he did go to the mattresses for Geraldo because they were insisting that Harada leave the country right that he absolutely did and, and he threatened to do a press conference and blast the military for not knowing what they were for having to two sides talk to him. And
John Moody:I remember one of his one of his most famous parts of that conversation was, isn't one part of the reason that you were there fighting for us to protect the First Amendment right. And quote, There's no, there is no answer to that question. No, no, we're not here for that. Yeah, we're here. Well, it's the beating life question. Right. Right. What's Roger knew how to do in any important circumstance.
Ken LaCorte:You know, he was he was a difficult person to debate with. Because he, how do I say it's because he was his objective was to win? Not necessarily to uncover the truth sometimes. Is that Is that fair to say?
John Moody:You know, what I, what I always thought Roger was able to do was to mentally establish the two ends of the playing field that that were in play. Either moody is going to be right about this, or somebody else is going to be right. And I've got to figure out what to do about it. And he would play one end against the other brilliantly. Now, that's a word that gets used too often. But he would do it brilliantly, including the question isn't part of the reason that we're in Afghanistan to protect the First Amendment? There's no good answer. Well, I
Ken LaCorte:mean, you could say, the First Amendment doesn't count on a battlefield when it's about giving away our fucking position. And that would have been a decent answer
John Moody:to which anybody would have responded. Really? I mean, is there case history on that? Can
Ken LaCorte:you prove that right?
John Moody:So any? Yeah, Geraldo burrata was
Ken LaCorte:good TV, though. It's like, I mean, as long as he did, I think he was he was bad if you had if you had to approve his expense, his expense accounts? Because those were, were you the guy who had to do that, were you the first level who had to like, because I mean, that was shit in there that people talk about to this day, it's like,
John Moody:I had to look at them and, and, and, and testified as to whether we think Harada was where he said he was at that time, right, I did not have to support shortly, I did not have to sign off on the expenses that was done by the finance department. None of none of whom was working at that time. He was still working there.
Ken LaCorte:So I always said when I worked at Fox, you know, because we always talked about writing the book, I always said that I would write a fictional type of book Think anonymous, or or or some some books that are largely based in reality. And I would have started it with Geraldo getting shot at in Iraq. Because, you know, none of us know that that could have been Yeah, made for some reason, man within 48 hours of him being there. You heard things and this and that, and, and didn't happen to any of our reporters who'd been there for months and months, but but Geraldo within the first three days, and everybody, of course, wondered, Is this brother with a rifle over the hill shooting shooting over him? And that would have been the start of that book was what do we do? Did this guy get shot at in Iraq? Had it was their internal talking about that? Or was it just we will talk about
John Moody:the allegation that it was his brother firing from off screen and nowhere near Geraldo, but within the hearing of Geraldo Rivera, and the cameras was urban legend and quickly took off and they were there as always in a newsroom there were at least two camps one camp of jealous people who didn't think that Geraldo should be there and making as much money as he was doing and getting assignments. Right, right. And the other saying, hey, you know, it's boosting ratings. We're catching up we're getting there. You know, we're just a step away.
Ken LaCorte:Now, he did he, he did and presumably does understand TV in a way that most journalists didn't I remember when he came into my region, I was running the west coast and we had some fires out there and everybody would you know, they get it either in front of the in front of the the staging area so you could have some some fire trucks and firemen getting getting water there or you try to get as close to the the action as you could, but it was always very, very difficult to get too close to a fire. Geraldo played the Geraldo card got through lines and, and he literally he told a story from a house that was still smoldering, and the smoke was still rising between Heraldo and the camera. So it was like Geraldo and hell this is like Dante's third third level there. And it was great TV was like, Man, that guy came in blew everybody else out of the water visually on that story in and in the only day that he was there. It was pretty impressive.
John Moody:Well, and again, then that produced at least two narratives about his legend one well, he got someplace that nobody else could go could get to right and the other one was, he might as well get used to because that's where he's gonna end up.
Ken LaCorte:Is it fair to say that a lot of successful people go over the except to become famous? Go over the acceptable line, but not so much that they fall over the cliff. I mean, every time Shepard Smith did something that he shouldn't have done. Whether it was was, you know, inserting his opinion or slamming another reporter on there or just being his kind of his kind of self or Geraldo, it seemed like when they just went over the line enough to get attention, but not enough to be killed. That that worked very, very well for them is that it's a theme. Yeah,
John Moody:it's not just to be killed. And it's not just Fox personalities. I mean, we all know famous correspondents and anchors who've gotten themselves in trouble by exaggerating the truth. And it's a very fine line. Indeed, it's it is like walking right near the edge of a mountain, you can either get the biggest rush of your life by doing it successfully and not falling, or, you know, you're they're gonna come down with a with a body bag for you to try to scoop you up.
Ken LaCorte:I mean, you know, I don't know if the Kardashians are nearly as big of a thing as they were 10 years ago, or more. You know, they really impressed me by the ability of that, or the concept that none of them really had any kind of natural talent. They didn't sing, they didn't dance, they didn't act. But they and this wasn't an accident. They kept themselves in the in the public eye by doing newsworthy ish, in that in that genre. Obviously, they weren't they weren't carrying cancer or shooting people enough to keep them in the you know, hey, we're cooking my placenta or, you know, here's a, you know, they've got a, they've got a, you know, here's her giving a blowjob to Kanye, or whatever, those those are, right. I mean, and that were, and that turned them all into crazy multimillionaires, the whole family and they have kept that, that that engine of PR going for years and years. I mean, you gotta tip your hat to them and, and learn something from them if you want to be if you want to play that game, I think,
John Moody:you know, I don't want to sometimes come off sounding elitist. I don't mean to, I can't name the Kardashians, I don't know who they which one is which or who. Whatever. But, but they have manipulated the American fascination with fame. Just about as well as anybody could have done. I mean, people of another generation believe that Jacqueline Kennedy, when she was still Kennedy tried to create herself as American royalty, and came close. I mean, that was pretty wonderful Camelot story, etc, etc. The Kardashians, to my best of my understanding of it have have gone the other way and made themselves American loyalty by showing people just how low they can go. Is it low, and I think that it's as
Ken LaCorte:low the right word there.
John Moody:As as much as they can possibly debase themselves in the public eye. They have been, I think, very successful. I don't need to hear about a husband and wife fight over, you know, sneakers, or sunglasses and stuff like that,
Ken LaCorte:or lamp in the White House or I.
John Moody:But, but But it's but it's not their fault. They simply saw the audience for it. And let's not compare them in any way to Fox News. But you know, what, Roger, famous in what Roger famously said was that he saw he knew there was an audience for our product, and then created the product to to, to get that audience to watch. So did the Kardashians.
Ken LaCorte:I mean, they're very comparable to Donald Trump now.
John Moody:Yes, much, much more closely than than Fox News.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, no, fuck Fox at least. I mean, Fox had an unserved market that it was pushing for, which is, is similar but different to I figured out how to manipulate the media into writing headlines of me every week. And Donald Trump was is I'm trying to think in my lifetime if there has been a more accurate or accurate, the wrong word, but somebody, a politician who's been able to manipulate the media, to his favor in the way that that Trump has, I mean, I mean, Reagan got bad press, but he was him and he transcended them by his way of communicating. But he didn't. He didn't turn people who hate him into into being his acolytes in a weird way, which is what Trump's done
John Moody:Right But Ronald Reagan despite his what some people thought his lack of credentials to be president, Ronald Reagan also was never insulting. He was
Ken LaCorte:cutting Oh, it's a whole different world. Yeah, yeah, it was a different world, it was a different, different. So
John Moody:you never have said some of the things that the
Ken LaCorte:for No, no, no, no, that I wasn't even trying to draw that equivalent. I was just trying to draw the concept that he was the only other well, he was probably the second best in my lifetime ability of a politician to kind of use the media who didn't like him and to become successful, although I tell you, you know, what, I remember growing up in the in the in the 80s. And I kind of bought the overall narrative from the media, that Reagan was affable, kind, good hearted, and kind of stupid. And, and just not all that, you know, Governor, California, what was the what was the stupid Champey? Had Bobo the, you know, he who was the bedtime for Bonzo, the, the chimp chimp there. And it wasn't until after he was gone that I read some of the books from him. And, and, and more precisely, the one. There's one book that is that is the letters from Ronald Reagan, and they were often handwritten. This was not from a staff. And it was from his, you know, pre Governor time through the presidency. He was brilliant. I mean, he he, as early governor would write to, you know, he just write back to some people and and he was not just glib and nice, but he also had a strong philosophical underpinnings of why he believed what he believed. And it was, it was crazily impressive. It was like, wow, this is not the guy. The Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and Peter Jennings told me he was you guys were full of shit back
John Moody:then. Yeah, well, I mean, I think a lot of that awareness comes through in the book by Edmund Morris Dutch, about about Reagan, because while it was is a large, while a large portion of that book is critical of some of Reagan's ideas and thinking, it also gives him enormous credit for being able to make a connection with real people, whether whether they are a president or prime minister of another country, or somebody who happened to catch him on his way, you know, to the to the office that day, and he decided to stop and talk.
Ken LaCorte:Right. So, yeah, interesting. Different different time. So So Trump, he run it again.
John Moody:i Every indication I have is that he is I certainly don't have any inside information. But it certainly seems like he's getting ready. And I think he'll consider the, the by elections this year in November to be the litmus test.
Ken LaCorte:Well, if that's if that's his litmus test right now, but that said, a year a year out from his election, and we thought it was going to be able to cruise to victory, but that was before we'd ever heard it. COVID a lot of things can happen. But I, you know, these days, I find a concept of a split presidency. And, and, and judicial and, and legislative body. Probably more preferable than than most things.
John Moody:You know, the old Romans once they realized that emperors were bad ideas, they split it up into two consoles, pro consoles. And when one was in Rome, and one was in Byzantium, and each had veto power over the other's ideas, nothing got done and they got invaded by the Visigoths. But aside from that little thing, it was a really good, you know, cooperative.
Ken LaCorte:When the Romans split off east and west, they could veto each other's shit.
John Moody:Yes. Hmm. Yeah, that was that was the that was the that
Ken LaCorte:was that, that that was one of that earlier, when they tried the tried and triumphant and they did they? They tried a few power splitting concepts. Because because the Eastern Roman Empire lasted pretty long.
John Moody:Yeah, sure did. I mean, it certainly survived the downfall and invasion of Rome itself. But I mean, while it was while they had those two things going, now, sometimes he was wrong. Sometimes it was a father and son. And so not not a big not a whole lot of dispute. But unlike today's
Ken LaCorte:yeah, there's never disputes between fathers and sons. All right.
John Moody:So speaking of which, I mean, have you seen any of succession?
Ken LaCorte:succession was interesting. So I was a couple years slow in getting into it. I'm, too, I finished two seasons on it. And I'm okay with it. I find it to be a very, very loose rendition of what the Murdoch family is i We, I think you said earlier that you had You were into the first season or what? What, what's, what's your impression on it? I mean, you've, you know, all of the players in that in that TV show?
John Moody:Well, I know all of them and none of them because none of them is really accurate portrayal of of the real people. But nonetheless I think that just like sometimes the movie versions of real events, become in people's minds. The true version, right. This is possibly what might happen with Rupert Murdoch's legacy. If and when he's no longer there, and let's hope it lasts for another 100 years, etc. But if well, and a lot of the viciousness a lot of the low rent action it goes on in the series. I mean, like, like, think that family in that you they don't
Ken LaCorte:think anybody jerked off onto a window. Come on, John.
John Moody:I'm only grateful and you know, I could go in every day and see how it's dominant. Um, I just think that that if you if you want to villainize your characters, there's a way to do it. Right. And I think that they've taken a road to villain isation that is very direct and very cheap.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, look, I found almost, I mean, I didn't never hung out with the Murdochs on Thanksgiving or anything like that. But I was in meetings with all of them and Rupert, at least 100 meetings. And there's no correlation between the people in that show. And, and the Murdochs that I've seen publicly. You know, Rupert Murdoch, I've I don't think I've ever heard him swear, maybe wank or some, you know, poofter or some something like that, but, but the concept that he was this ad Go fuck yourself, rah rah, like, like that? It's like, okay. And it was interesting, because I think in today's society, we sometimes conflate incivility and being a jerk, with being strong. And, and I reject that notion. But but that is a notion that it's like, if you're not calling for Joe Biden to be impeached, you're not a strong Republican, if you don't say, eff Trump and stand up there, like, like, like actors did taking their things and flipping people off and, or holding pictures of the preserve images of the President with his head chopped off that, that those two things have been confused in, in our society. And it's like, you know, I don't think Eisenhower was ever a jerk, but he was pretty strong one would argue. I mean, one would argue successfully. i Why are those two things seen as the same thing right now when they're not?
John Moody:Again, audiences like to be shocked. And sometimes they like to be shocked more than they like to be informed. And I think that the the characterization of Mr. Roy, whatever session is so far off the mark from Rupert Murdoch, that it may overwhelm what we know what anybody who ever met him and knew him and worked with him knows to be true, which is not someone you want to be in competition with. He's also someone who possesses and this is going to sound amazing and I'm sure you'll get letters or whatever, passes for letters these days. He's, he's, um, he's, he's self Abnegation. He does not make himself out to be the king of all things. And he he shows self awareness and at the same at the same time that he is plotting to buy another entity. Yeah, but he says is impossible for him to buy and that he does it
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, he's a tough competitor. But again, I've never seen him be the the emotional the emotional bully other people were in life but but but Reaper Alec all of the characters in this in this TV show are kind of although I don't know the daughter who's one of the more nuanced characters in the in the TV show but but you know, the two sons one is a druggie kind of blah, blah, blah, blah. The other is just so creative that he can't sit in a chair he has to sit on his head or, or lie on the ground or hang from a hammock or whatnot. And And one of the more bothersome parts where you just thought this is fucking stupid is every time they were in like meetings, you want to be picking his nose and saying stupid things and it was just like, you know, I've seen that the young Murdoch's handful of times, they always seem to be pretty bright. They weren't, they weren't, you know, they weren't clowns and and the TV show kind of turns them into clowns. And then I see Frank, rich as a was Frank, rich, one of the the executive producers. Yeah, yeah. So
John Moody:no, no friend of the Murdochs or of any Murdoch owned company.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah. I love the way that like, your worst enemies can can be the people who produce your documentaries or the movies against you know, we saw this with Ailes with, you know, that literally people who hated him, were the ones that got Hollywood contracts, and you're like, Okay, well, let's see how that's gonna come out. And it came out exactly I expected.
John Moody:Yeah, I mean, if anybody ever, ever suggests that Aaron Sorkin produce anything that I ever wrote, the answer is going to be no. Not happening.
Ken LaCorte:So you're in Costa Rica right now. You live in Costa Rica, probably half time. What do you so so you know, I know you're a fairly conservative guy. You normally live in Jersey, but yet you like this? I wouldn't call it a third world country. But it's a it's not America. How do you how do you view the relationship between quote the Costa Rican government and their people versus the American government and their people?
John Moody:Much cooler, much more distance?
Ken LaCorte:There's there's another Bolivian cooler, meaning why
John Moody:not? Not not in the not in the hipster sense, cooler as in more removed? No attempt to spin the news cycle every 30 minutes? No, no gotcha stuff going on. There are three political parties here, which makes it an interesting comparison with the United States and something that might someday want to be studied. Everybody's always said, you know, gee, if you could just start a new party, we could really have some decent leadership and cooperation. They're trying, they're trying, they're not always successful, but they're trying. And I would just say that there's even when you watch the television, news or read newspapers, and there are actually newspapers in Costa Rica, and people buy them, they actually pay money to read a newspaper, when an idea
Ken LaCorte:is so fucking old. Yeah, well, I mean, if it's not written on dead paper, look, there's no trees involved. I don't have anything to do with
John Moody:it. If anybody wants to call me. If anybody ever wants to call me from New York, they say what time is it there and I say it's an hour and 20 years behind you. And place not evolved into I guess I've used the term before in this talk, but into Gotcha. Politics is not devolved into that stupid level of, you know, you're a liar. You're a terrible person. I hate you. You need to go to hell and come back. And
Ken LaCorte:so the politics there are more civil. So I want to hear
John Moody:yes. Which is not to say that they're not earnest. And not to say they don't occasionally, you know, get into some pretty good fights. But it's not this constant. Undermining this constant, how can you possibly be a Republican? Or how can you ever stand? Joe Biden, it's done with more civility? I think, part of that is the Latino culture. That still exists and guides here.
Ken LaCorte:But But, but you wouldn't say that for Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Brazil, they're, they're all as big vessels as they are in America now. I mean, somehow, somehow Costa Rica, separated itself. I mean, you know, it's between Panama and Nicaragua. I mean, I mean, you know, it's in a rough neighborhood. How did it do that? Because because I worked on in. When I worked down in Colombia in the 90s, we there were four presidential candidates killed in the race that I was working on. When I worked to Guatemala, our guy lost. And then they shot him when he was making a comeback. So I mean, I mean, it was it was very uncivil in those places had had it had had had this these guys do
John Moody:it in Costa Rica. And didn't you tell me a story can that while you were working for Rod
Ken LaCorte:Oh, yeah. Roger, Roger, you know, he's in I was, I was young and stupid and eager. So he's like, can you can go to Colombia where people are blowing up all the time. We had turrets in our, in our in our campaign headquarters. And, and he was always like, well, Costa Rica, they feed me well in there and they're, they're pleasant people. He was just like, they're peaceful little people. And he was Like he was, so I never got to go to Costa Rica even though we did I think we did areas as campaign as some say it was back in that generation. Yeah.
John Moody:Anyway. So of course those other Latin, those other Central American countries that you that you pointed out all have had including Panama all have had terrible histories of violence and crime and and civil war not Panama as a civil war but the other three that you mentioned, well Noriega was Guatemala and El Salvador and I would say none worse, none. And Noriega was no picnic. I mean, it took us invading Panama to stop him from from doing anything worse, right? He did. Costa Rica, because of one man named Jose figueiras. And he was popularly known as Pepe became the president of Costa Rica, and immediately abolished its armed forces. He just said, we don't need to, we'll spend our money on more 111 Was this. That was 1948, I believe. Okay. So but but why? Why was he able to do that? And people just say, Yes, see, now if the United States would just abolish its military, we can live peacefully? Oh, no, no, no. Pepe figueiras knew that the United States was always going to protect Costa Rica. It was just an unspoken pact will never let anything bad happen. He was this out of the kindness of Americans are still Costa Rica was right on the border of Panama in the Panama Canal. Yeah, it
Ken LaCorte:was between because because I've always been like, you live between Panama and Nicaragua, what the fuck, I'd want to have a gun.
John Moody:And that, and that canal was the most important waterway in the world for many, many years. And Pepe figure and his and his successors, have all known anything happened to us,
Ken LaCorte:right? Can't tell you why you trust? Can you trust another country like that? Because I know, a lot, Afghanistan's probably trusted the United States eight months ago, and a lot of Iraqis trusted us two years ago, and there's a lot of dead people because of that.
John Moody:Right? And, and look, I mean, I've talked to people here, citizens here, etc. And, and Trump scared them. Trump's lack of respect for Latin America, really scared coaster, you can make them one, or if the pact, you know, actually needed to be written down and needed to be spoken. And now Biden, I think they they think, well, he's a nice old guy. But he's really kind of he's really shown himself to be kind of weak. And he is undermining the presumption that the United States will always be there for us if and when needed.
Ken LaCorte:So I've never stepped in Costa Rica, so I can't really judge it. But it seems as though the best societies on the planet are ones who have striven and this is something I got from my son one who's striven to be just and strong in the sense that a lot of Caribbean islands or or, you know, islands down in the Fiji or it's like, they have a great time and being just a good happy society. No military, no hospital, no, you know, and that that stuff always works well. Until shit turns bad, right, a hurricane hits a lot of places. And they're like, I wish the United States was here with their, with their nuclear carriers to come and save us because they can make drinking water, electricity, and hospitals and all of those things. And I've, I've kind of always wondered, you know, I admire Costa Rica in so many ways. I'm, I'm not sure if that's a plus in their column for now. It's in my column. If they had a military, I think they still would be a good country and they would be a little bit safer. It's kind of like the guy who brags he's in such a good neighborhood that he doesn't need a gun to protect himself and then when something bad happened, I mean, Kuwait didn't have an army either. And they were pretty fucking happy about that right up until Saddam rolled over there and started you know, started taking they're taking the Rolls Royces away and killing people and their, their oil wells. No. So I I don't know. That was something else. There's something else about Costa Rica, though, because because they've they've they've made a baby on that they've made a good society. I'm sorry,
John Moody:what what separates Costa Rica from its neighbors is they have a middle class.
Ken LaCorte:Interesting. How did that happen? Do you know?
John Moody:I think a lot of people took advantage of the mandatory education until the age of I believe it's 15 which certainly is not the case in neighboring countries, but but it's I believe it's 15 and it might have actually been extended to 16. But you know, they you can't send your kids Get out to the to the rice field, you can't send them out to the coffee plantation when they're eight. And that's the end of the last lesson they learned.
Ken LaCorte:That's very interesting, because I didn't understand that. And look, that was clearly what communism never foresaw with capitalism in the United States was the rise of the middle class. You know, to them, it was always the opposite. There's a little,
John Moody:there's a little town not not more than 15 minutes from us. And when COVID hit and hit here, hard, just like everywhere else. So this would have been 2021 when it hit here. They close the schools, and they said, you know, that's a super spider, we can't afford that. And teachers are didn't monitor. And there's this woman who was the teacher at one of these schools. And she said, Okay, we'll, we'll have school at my house. You know, we'll go get the books we'll bring over to my house
Ken LaCorte:that clearly violated her union though, right? Absolutely.
John Moody:What was she thinking? I mean, and fire that bit. And, and, and very slowly, very slipped, by which I mean, almost a year, the story got out. And now she's national hero. But it took that long, and it took that kind of determination, just to say, children need to be educated. Almost as that's almost as important as keeping them safe from this. Right. Right.
Ken LaCorte:It's an interesting story. We haven't seen that. I have relatives who are teachers we have but but teachers have taken a hit in the United States, because because their unions have been so fearful on their behalf and maybe with them. I mean, and, and John and LA right now they've got kids and classrooms. And they have masks on and have plastic that that's, they're not bubbles, because they're square but they're in plastic cubes. So their breath it's it's it's a weird thing, and the teachers union still kind of kind of want to pull them out of that.
John Moody:I look up my my great prayer is that Randi Weingarten never comes down here on vacation, because she'll hate it and she'll try to make trouble for the teachers.
Ken LaCorte:How do you see things turning bad in a place like Costa Rica? Or do you?
John Moody:Um, they are beset by illegal immigration from, from various countries, Panama and Nicaragua, especially in Nicaragua. There's a lot and a lot of on documented Nicaraguans here, who, and I don't want to compare it to Mexico to the United States. But the Nicaraguans are without any hope, of anything changing, while Daniel Ortega is the president of Nicaragua, right? And they'll do anything?
Ken LaCorte:How does how does Costa Rica deal with the illegal immigrants?
John Moody:Badly? Again, you talk about you know, what would they be like if they had an army, they'd be able to enforce their borders much better. And they have a national police and I respect them greatly. But they're just there's not nothing. And there are too many jungle paths cross the river between Nicaragua and Costa Rica, you cannot, you cannot watch them all. And it's gonna it's going to hurt the economy,
Ken LaCorte:because somebody comes from Honduras badly educated. If somebody comes from Honduras or Nicaragua and just decides to live in Costa Rica and get a job and whatnot, can, can they integrate them? Can they can they become citizens? Because they can they integrate themselves? How does that work versus the US? Sure,
John Moody:they can legally become a citizen of the kid. It's not easy, and it's expensive. And you're gonna hire a lawyer, and not everybody wants to do that. And, you know, sometimes it takes a very, very long time. But yes, Costa Rican law allows non citizens to become citizens. Again, it's not like, it's not like the Biden plan, which is just say, you know, God bless you're in the United States. Now. We'll call you American, right? Alright. So if you're a kradic nightmare, but you can do it.
Ken LaCorte:You think illegals, illegal aliens undocumented? Whatever the term you choose in the United States? Do you think they have a net positive or negative effect on America long term?
John Moody:I think that for about 180 years they had a net positive effect. I think that the Irish and the Italians and the whatever you know that that came from, from Europe and and in some cases from Latin America and from Asia. I think they brought A whole new kind of workforce and work think with them, which, which was based on the fact that Thank God, we are here and we are going to become Americans.
Ken LaCorte:And you don't you don't think the current flock of people want that?
John Moody:No, I think the current i know i think the current immigrants philosophy is we got past the border guards. We're here illegally. Now let's see if we can turn this place into the place that we came from.
Ken LaCorte:Okay. I think two things. One is the reason why America is the country that it is on the world, is because most of us have a family tree. That as it expands out to our either parents, or grandparents or great grandparents, or whatever it is, that was have a bunch of people who were sitting in some screwed up part of the world and looked around and said, You know what, fuck this place, I'm going to America. And they might not have been educated or smart or have any resources. But the ones who left their family area, their home their friends, and jumped on a boat to come to America had a spark of something that most humans didn't. And don't. And, and I'm still hopeful that that's the case for the guy who's living down in a Mexican village with dirt on his floor, he just looks around and says, you know, I mean, he's poor, he's uneducated, he doesn't have much on a on a resume to bring, but he's got the fortitude to say, Screw this place, I'm going to make a better life for my family if I if I illegally come up to to another country. And I hope that's still the case. I you know, I'm not convinced, but I'm hopeful for that.
John Moody:It might be Can I think that there are. And again, here I am in Latin America, and I'm about to say something bad about Latin Americans. But But I think
Ken LaCorte:what will excise this portion from the Latin American audience?
John Moody:I think that the flood of so much for freedom of speech, I think that the flood of illegal immigrants from Latin American countries, and I'm specifically thinking of Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, who have left these dirt floor places, as you call them, and traversed the width and length of Mexico in order to get across the border to Texas or California, or wherever they're trying to get to. And, and we tend to think that once they get here, they're to the United States, they're going to have this epiphany, and they're going to learn English, they're going to get a job, they're going to pay taxes are going to raise their kids, right, I'm going to send them to school. And what really happens, I think, all too often is they get there. And you know, when you get to a country where nobody speaks your language, or very few people speak or the people that you're encountering, don't speak your language, you try to find somebody to interpret for you. And in many, many cases, the first person that these illegal immigrants find to interpret for them and explain what's going on are gang members from their own country. And once you put yourself into the hands of these gangs, whether it's you know, Salem, Eritrea, Chad, whatever those things, then you are in trouble. And they
Ken LaCorte:look, there's whole communities in LA, where nobody really speaks English, right? I mean, when when my grandparents came from Italy, they went to Buffalo. I don't have it. Frick, they ended up in buffalos. You know, some, somehow they thought that was the promised land. Because they didn't read the pamphlet about winter. And they went to the areas where there were a lot of Italians that were tying neighborhoods back then, and the Italian stores and everybody spoke the same language. I mean, when, when my dad and a number of his his siblings first went to school, they didn't speak English. They spoke Italian just because that's what they spoke at home. I you know, I remember one of the first stories and you were my boss that I that this was probably the first year covered and set a crew down for was was I was the LA bureau chief and this was in Mexico. And there is a river that flows from Mexico. And it's basically a river of crap. I mean, it's it's literal. It's sewage, it's It's poop. It's you know, and of course we have a we have an agreement that said they were going to clean it up by 1972 or whatever that is, and it still isn't happening and it's kind of a nephew to to that. And we sent some cameras down there, some, some, some, some cameraman, and the family is from Mexico who wanted to sneak into the United States would go to that river, they would, they would strip off all their clothes except for their chonies. Right? So and they would put them all into a plastic hefty bag. And then they sometimes that would help them float. And they would also just find something, a log or something to help them flow. And we literally had footage of these families just kind of floating in a river of shit into the United States. And I know I'm supposed to be like, oh, all illegal immigrants are bad, but I thought they're more American than most Americans I made to, to want to live in a country bad enough that you're willing to give up everything, put all your possessions in a hefty bag and float through a river. That was that was just disgusting. I call it a river. But it was it was somewhere between a river and a and a sewage of sewage facility. I don't know I've got a feeling that they're going to be poor. And their kids are going to be the ones who succeed in America.
John Moody:Canada, it's a great story. And you're absolutely right to admire those people. And I, I hope that every one of them is, you know, finding the United States everything that they want it to be. The problem is and I repeat, when they when they get when they get to the America, whether legally or illegally in so many cases now. And it's under reported. The first people they meet are members of a gang from their home country. So
Ken LaCorte:they go up to the Ms. 13. I mean, they're not offering jobs. I mean, they're not. I mean, they're coming in, they're working in the fields here they're working in in menial labor. They're working in some skilled labor, you know, unskilled, the skilled labor stuff, what is Ms. 13? Doing? Well, what are they, you know, you got, you got 2 million people coming up here is a substantive percentage of them getting tied up into that you think,
John Moody:whether it's by being forced into membership, or whether it's being extorted. You want to work and you want to cut somebody grass, you're going to give us 35% of your of your salary. Otherwise, you know what, your daughter might not get home from school tomorrow.
Ken LaCorte:And you know what that sounds like? That sounds like that sounds like the Italian extortion, fear. A little bit of that sounds like the Italian Mafia of the 40s.
John Moody:Of the Italian Mafia. The Italian Mafia ate better. But they have the same tactics. Yes. Yeah. And by the way, the Chinese do the same thing with immigrants from China to the United States.
Ken LaCorte:So So China hasn't killed you yet, which I'm mildly surprised that would you say? Thank you? Oh, yeah, no, I did. Well, I'm definitely happy but mildly surprised. You had a career where your ostensible goal was to tell the truth. And to report facts as you see them, then you write a fictionalized account of something that's, that's partially true, partially partially made up? How do you approach that? How much do you feel that you have an obligation to be honest? in the broader sense of that, since you're obviously making a dramatic story? How do you how do you go about that? How much is real? How much is how much is John? How does? How does that whole thing work?
John Moody:Great question. I decided to write this last year. Because 2020, in my opinion, had been such an incredibly horrible year for so many people. And you can't even just start to discuss 20 Without the Wuhan virus. So I did literally know nothing that anybody with a computer couldn't have done. I went through and looked at the various theories about what had started the virus. I looked at, believe it or not some of the CDC The Center for Disease Control. Dr. Documents, I listened to Dr. Fauci from time to time until I couldn't take it anymore. And read newspaper accounts and newspaper news accounts from various countries. So what was going on? You can, you can get around this any number of ways that you want. But the virus started in Wuhan. Wuhan is a city of 11 million people. Most people don't know that. It's that big. Two, and it's huge. Yes. And it has the national virology institute located there. It's not in Beijing, because Beijing has too many ministries and headquarters and stuff. It's in Wuhan. Now, we know that the Chinese virologists were working with American virologists to concoct a virus. Now it was supposed to be a hypothetical virus. What would happen if we put this and this and this and this and this together? And what would we come up with? I mean, scientists do it all the time. It's fine. It's perfectly, you know, how do we how do we control malaria? Well, let's think about this. And this, and what if we added this to make it more effective,
Ken LaCorte:but there are kind of strict rules and ethics, concerns about making those things more violent? That's actually a good word.
John Moody:Of course, there are. And of course, here we go. That's the title. And of course, we trust the Chinese to obey those rules, don't we? Well, should we? Here's the thing about the neurology and suit which I found out to be true, this is not my rabbit imagination. The people there are very, very badly paid, although they are prominent neurologists. Right. And, and some of the work some of the experimentation on bats. Bats carry disease very easily. And it's, it's part of the reason we're all afraid of bats, a lot of people are afraid of bats, because we fly up to you. And the hair thing, and the hair thing and the vampire thing. And there's a laboratory on the second floor of the institute. That is low security, which means that there are not locks and keys and monitors and CCTV stuff going on all but it's more sort of like the rooms that you and I are sitting in, except they have bats with with disease in the cages sent from sometimes the best guy, because they have Wuhan virus in and the people that are in charge of pulling the bats out of the cages, sticking them in bags, and incinerating them are so badly paid that sometimes they freelance and they take these things to the market. That's what happened.
Ken LaCorte:Could you imagine being paid so little that a dead bat? Is that appreciable amount of money to you?
John Moody:I used to work for a place called United Press International.
Ken LaCorte:But I mean, wow. Alright, so that's definitely one possibility there. I mean, or the possibility just came, somebody got sick as they were screwing around with this stuff. And then they went and pass it on to their entire family, it's at least
John Moody:as possible as the the version that was put out by the People's Daily, which is the Communist Party, newspaper, which is that the virus was started by the United States military, and low flying American military. Perry aircraft, flew over Wuhan and dropped the virus on now what they said I thought that, that for our military and I know that they have some
Ken LaCorte:I thought that they said that the United States were there for some training. And there was an instance where some military people were in that region. months before I don't recall what that is. I thought that that was their their primary thing as you guys came over here, you were briefing on us people and and and that's what created it.
John Moody:But But then, but then they also pointed out that US military aircraft had been seen flying over the area. Now, if the Chinese
Ken LaCorte:men could say anything they fucking want and people believe it. Because if they don't believe it, or say they believe it, they their moms disappear.
John Moody:Right? I mean, we get all upset if Trump says something that's not true, but then we just say, well, it's just the Chinese say, and so yeah, I mean, it's a
Ken LaCorte:different way. Yeah, it's weird. I kind of expect it from I expected from the New York Times these days and CNN so I'm not sure I and
John Moody:and remember, and this is also this is also verifiable. It's not just my fervent imagination, but they they shut down Wuhan very hard when they realized they had something worse than then influenza going around. They literally welded metal doors of people's apartments shot some people died of starvation. Because of that. You could be shot if you were seen out on the streets of Wuhan. But but but but here's the funny thing. If you happen to have an existing airline ticket for international flight, they let you leave. Wow. Now we want and then we say this thing spreads so fast. How did it happen?
Ken LaCorte:Well, when you look at the numbers, I I forget the numbers, but there's about I think it was like 10 flights a day it was 1000s like, like 20,000 people a day and I'm pulling that out of my out of my ear. Come into Los Angeles, Los Angeles. From China every day, and it's just the amount of travelers that we have between that is just is just phenomenal. It was. So it was.
John Moody:And Trump was a racist for trying to cut that off.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah. Although I got yes, no, it was a smart move. Although I tell you, I heard 30 press conferences of him patting himself on the back for that after like, after like the fifth one. I was like, Dude, I fucking got it. All right, you stop the flights coming in it somehow. So we're still all got it? Because we all had it for weeks beforehand. But but it is. I mean, to me when I look at, and there's a paucity of real information, right. I mean, China, according to China, the number of people who died of COVID in their country last year was two, if you believe their official records, I think that that might be a little bit optimistic. I'm just saying, you know, when Guam and little islands that nobody's heard of have more people, you probably had 10s, or hundreds of 1000s, or maybe millions. That got wiped out. And it is I'm not I hate Fauci guy, but he makes me kind of raise my eyebrows a lot. But the fact then, he and some of these NGOs, were were giving money to that lab, knowing that they were playing with this fire, that they were increasing the virality of these things. The fact that there was one nonprofit group that was the the middleman between this money that when China said, Oh, well, you want to investigate us, the only person that we allow you to send is the person who runs that middleman group who had a vested interest in in saying that that didn't exist. The fact that that guy coordinated the first, it was natural. It was bats that flew in from from thing. I mean, that's a conspiracy on a real level. And it's a real conspiracy. And the fact that we're looking at at at Fauci who I, again, I don't hate everything he does. I think he's probably on our side. But the fact that they created this thing, and we're able to spin it off as to what oh, well, we're just here to help you win a bunch of pinhead Propellerheads. In China and America unleashed this thing on the world. I find shocking. I'm just, I don't know, maybe I'm easily shocked.
John Moody:But why do you find it shock? Who do you think is because
Ken LaCorte:I guess I think that the big lies get caught usually pretty early by a country that ostensibly has a free press that has a First Amendment with the way that we have, you know, I still am a supporter of our of our media system enough to think that huge things like that the truth should come out. And the fact that it hasn't yet. I mean, it was a Vanity Fair article, a handful of months ago. I mean, it was you know, this was a crazy conspiracy theory. And it's just, it's, you know, you're Tom Cotton, right? You're a you're a nutjob, and we're gonna, we're gonna erase you from from from having written a column for us. And Vanity Fair was like the first liberal publication that kind of laid out. Clearly, this thing wasn't a naturally occurring thing from bats who lived 1000s of miles away and somehow flew. I mean, the whole natural theory is riddled with with potential flaws in the logic there, right. It's very, very unlikely
John Moody:dishonesty politically motivated, twisted dishonesty.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah. Elon Musk. Elon Musk
John Moody:recently lost a lot of faith back and forth on Well, yeah, but but Elon Musk is now also going to open a showroom for Tesla's in shinjang Province, which is where all the Uyghurs are being tortured to death. So how good a guy is he? Yeah. And you know, and yesterday, the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, said, No, we're not going to ask China to tell us where all the clothing and all of the souvenirs and all of the officially sanctioned Olympic gear was made. We don't want to know where it was made. Well, you know, where it was made. It was made in shinjang by Uyghurs who then go and are waterboarded and electrocuted and have their organs removed.
Ken LaCorte:Is it that bad?
John Moody:Well, I'm not there. But yeah, that's what you hear. That's what people are saying. And, and, indeed, I mean, why is
Ken LaCorte:that not struck American consciousness enough? I mean, and in fairness, the Holocaust didn't strike American conscious in in a real way until, you know, it's after, after it happened after the bodies were discovered and and whatnot. Why? Why did things like that take so long for humanity to react against?
John Moody:We're scared on many levels. On one level, we're scared that we don't want to have a nuclear war with China, which is, in fact, a war we might lose. And then we're scared all the way down the scale to the level of twos anymore. And computers or iPhones or cheap plastic glasses or whatever. Which is it? And they okay, they know that
Ken LaCorte:do we believe it? Do you think the average American believes and comprehends how bad certain things are?
John Moody:No, because they're not. They're not infiltrated with the same persistence, about what's going on with, say, the Uyghurs. And first of all, you tell you find me 100 Americans, and I'll bet you 30 of them spell Uyghur correctly. No more than that. We're with the same intensity and ferocity with which we get all the climate change, propaganda. If you have a plastic bottle of water, you are a criminal and you're killing the earth and you need to die. And people are starting, okay. But if it's somewhere else, and it's not going to kill you tomorrow, you're not going to do anything about it. And it's a terrible human flaw. But I'll tell you what, China has figured it out. And they play it perfectly.
Ken LaCorte:I mean, part of it is also we care less about people who are further removed than we are. Right? If you look differently from me, if you don't speak English, if you live in a part of the world, where we just assume that certain things I mean, I mean, we live through an African genocide between the hood seas and the Tutsis, I always get them. Shame on me, but millions of people hacked to death. I mean, it was pretty bad. I don't remember a whole lot of news coverage of it before, during or sense. And, and I wonder how much of that is just when something is with a culture that's very different than our own? We have a tendency to kind of shrug our shoulders on that.
John Moody:Sure. I mean, look, it comes from Geography, yes, it's far away. And it's not going to affect my life today or tomorrow. It comes from, in some cases, the media. And I'm, I'm not going to be too critical on this one. Sometimes they can't afford to send people there to see it for themselves and report back. Right. Sometimes they just don't want to, and sometimes they don't think it'll get good ratings. And what it does, and there's then there's the political blowback, which is, we can't afford to take China off right now, because we owe them so much debt, and we import so many of their goods. And we are in trade talks with them now. And they've just decided to build a colony on the moon. Look, that's That's true. That's not me, a colony on the moon. And well see what else you guys gonna do. And I think there's a certain amount of in voluntary fear among our politicians and our government and our even our military. Hey, don't take don't don't kiss these guys off.
Ken LaCorte:Maybe true. I talked to military guys who are still more concerned about Russia than China. And I wonder how much of that is driven by politics driven by history? How much of it is right versus how much of it is wrong? Because a lot of them still kind of give a back of their hand to China. I mean, look, China's made product wise, China's made crap for so long. I mean, the word made in China is synonymous with this. This is crap. But it's really changed over the last five years. I mean, I I've sensed it in, I've seen it in in software, in products. They've gone from making garbage to to doing a lot of and, you know, stealing concepts, grabbing things from IP copying something in a in a cheap and poorly done way. But they've they've gotten a lot stronger and a lot better over the past handful of years. And and I don't know how many people are noticing that.
John Moody:Everything's run by the party. The party has no opposition. There are no unions to complain about The long hours and the poor pay. Nobody's telling them not to do anything that might affect the environment. And nobody is telling them to obey international trade rules, or stop stealing intellectual property products.
Ken LaCorte:But all of that will work against them in the long term. I think history is replete with examples of, of top down structures where you can't tell Hitler that yeah, that that unit there that you just wanted to flank around is gone. Because everybody's afraid to tell you that that we can't wake you up in the middle of the night when you're or at 10 o'clock in the morning when you're still asleep. Because we really believe that the the invasion of Normandy as they invasion and not the not the faint where it were where the allies are going to come in, through through Calais. When you look at Middle Eastern countries, I mean, when's the last time a, a Middle Eastern power has beaten a Western Power in armed conflict? I mean, you kind of see the short term advantages of having a totalitarian state. But the problem is that I've seen is, their their mistakes are never corrected, because there's no one there to say you suck trop get out. I mean, I mean, you know, even a nice little country like Jordan, I remember going there and it was like, Oh, the, the biggest industry here is like the potash industry. I don't even know what potash is, but it's something important. And I was like, interesting, who runs that? And they're like, you know, the king's brother was like, Oh, he must be the world's most that he must be Jordan's most senior senior person on potash. And you kind of see it time after time in the history of humanity. That that, that organizations that have no corrective measurements in them, like our highly inefficient democracies have, tend to have short term success and long term failures. Is that being overly optimistic?
John Moody:No, I but I want you to define long term. And I would I would suggest that long term in the case of China means that I will be here to gloat over their eventual demise. Nor will perhaps our children nor perhaps our grandchildren, China thinks in terms of centuries, and millennia,
Ken LaCorte:how shocked would you be if in 20 years, we don't? How, how shocked? Would you be if in 20 years or five years, China had a food problem that killed 5% of their population? Would that blood go away?
John Moody:Not at all. I would also not be shocked if their water supply is no longer potable, because of all the pollution that they've done on it to the to their water supply. I would also not be surprised if Chinese start to grow, the population starts to grow much, much older, more quickly than anybody any demographers predicted it would, and that you can't find labor in China. That sounds like the stupidest thing anybody could ever say. But you can't find able bodied labor in China.
Ken LaCorte:I was under the impression that they were easing off on the one child policy and that that wouldn't be as much of a problem. What do you say that
John Moody:they have eased off on one child policy, people are feeling the Chinese population. And again, this is not just my wild imagination. Chinese population in every survey that is taken, feels much more pessimistic about the future and doesn't want to bring children into the world.
Ken LaCorte:It's kind of one of that it's like, you know, you'd see these African countries where Ethiopia where the people, people who are watching this right now are too young to remember. But I mean, Ethiopia would lose 100,000 people for starvation, you know, in a month, and that would just be and our singers are singing about it and sending them food doing their best. But they're still having babies left, right and center. And I always kind of wondered, how could you live in a society where everything was going to crap and still be bringing babies into it? And I just figured that that was a natural instinct. But you're not seeing it at some. I mean, you know, Japan, is it a negative growth, the United States is very, very close to negative growth. If you take out if you take out immigrants coming into it, I think we might even be at a negative growth. And that's an interesting, shocking
John Moody:case. The most shocking case of all is Italy, which is in danger of losing. Ready 25% of its youth population by 2030.
Ken LaCorte:And an a tie, it's like sex.
John Moody:Again, you're you're an Italian. Well, thank
Ken LaCorte:you it'll be more than me, you know what I'm talking about? I'm not making things up. I mean, they like do this all comes down to the birth control pill. If it wasn't there would be. I, you know, I? It's an interesting question, you know, certainly in biblical times, the concept of more people in your tribe, equating to strength was something that was that was written into religious religious texts. Right. I mean, I mean, there was, there was clearly a, you know, I mean, Catholicism every every sperm is sacred. Right. I mean, I mean, that the concept that the bigger we are, the stronger we will be. Wonder if that's still a smart philosophy for populations? I think it is, but I'm not sure. Well,
John Moody:I think that religions are, do play a role in it. And I understand what you're talking about in terms of the Catholic Church, it certainly has held out against birth control for a very, very long time. What I think is becoming a factor as important and as moral as birth control, is quality of life. And if you have a country that cannot support its population, with enough food with enough health care with enough anything, then that has increasingly become the determining factor, not just can you can, are we going to be the biggest tribe around?
Ken LaCorte:Well, I guess, in essence, it asks a broader question. Is America a stronger country? With 250 million people, or 550 million people? And it's easy to say, well, the the air will become this and then we have to worry about water, and can we feed all those people. But on the other hand, you're also getting twice as many people to be in the military, or invent the cork, or to do all of the all of the great things that we do if we had twice as many Nobel laureates coming from America, we would we would be a stronger society. I don't know Is it is it? Would America be stronger if we had half as many people or twice as many people?
John Moody:Well, but you've I understand your argument. I think it's based on a couple of fallacies. You keep you're talking about Nobel Laureates. And what we're running into now is, we're not going to produce very many Nobel laureates, if we insist that college admissions be based on race on gender on this and
Ken LaCorte:that, that's an ancillary issued to the question, though.
John Moody:Well, it's not really because it just assumes that bulk equals equals success. And that might be true in wrestling, but it's not necessarily true in country building.
Ken LaCorte:Well, the first successful country, wouldn't we be more successful if we were twice as big? Well, enough, minus, we don't have enough water. We ran out of pizza. You know, I mean, I got that part. But I know, but but maybe not. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure as I'm thinking this out. Yeah. But
John Moody:I mean, you say when you run out of water, how long range was your thinking that it's not? So we have the biggest country in the world, China, which I think is becoming an existential threat to the United States. And the second biggest country in the world is India, which is not because they're not doing anything, well, I shouldn't say anything, they are not progressing in the same trajectory that China is. And they're, they're finding all the problems of overpopulation and none of the rewards of it. The Indian Army is not something that anybody's really worried about.
Ken LaCorte:India, the the corruption in India has hurt that country so dramatically and I talk about Mexico a lot. You know, I grew up in LA you could drive down to Mexico for a couple hours you only did when you were looking to party or or or going on a small vacation and the concept that corruption and accepted corruption has has held that country back so much because because I'm a big believer that if I can't start a business, allow it to grow and believe that the the country and the judicial system will protect me. Why would I do it here? And the answer is get don't down in Mexico, he the most aggressive ones who want to start a business. They're in San Diego and they're doing fine. Yet in in China, there's a huge amount of corruption but if the numbers are really believed at all, it's it's still having success at growing whereas in India economically whereas in India isn't.
John Moody:Well, because because the corruption is very real in China, but the corruption just like everything else is within the party. When if you're if you're a store owner, if you A market, vendor etc. You pay your blackmail, you pay your but you pay it to somebody in the party who then puts out his or her 5% of his take to the next guy up to the next guy and finally gets to Xi Jinping. But it's all controlled by the party, which also controls the rules, which also controls the army, which also controls the foreign policy. And therefore, it's never going to get outside that orbit the way it does in India. And and that's the difference between the two biggest countries in the world.
Ken LaCorte:I mean, in India, the types of corruptions that they have are, yes, you have a, a bachelor's degree in computer science, but you don't even know algebra, because you paid somebody off, or you came from the right family. And so then you hire and I've tried this, I've tried hiring Indian firms to do some computer stuff for me, and it was kind of like, Are you fucking kidding me, I mean, I'm not a computer guy, but I could tell what you're giving me is absolute shit. And, and it's not worth, you know, 17 story, right. And, and, but China has a different type of corruption that is that is not hindering as much their economic growth and their and their their countries grow.
John Moody:Because the corruption promotes economic growth, you will give me a piece of your action, so that I will allow you to send your children to this school where they will get a very good education. So somebody when I was researching this book, again, fiction, but so explained to me, by the time they finish what we would call junior high school and are ready to go to high school, most Chinese students who are going to go on in their education, can name all 50 American states. Now, tell me if anybody in your or my school district can do that.
Ken LaCorte:So I went to a pretty good college and I was a pretty, I was always one of the two or three smartest kids in every classroom. But when I was in college, I thought New England was a state. And it was like, I was like, You got your own fucking football team. Why, you know, no other region of the country had its own football team, right, the New England Patriots, I thought New England was a state, there were a lot of small little places. Anyhow, so I would fail in China, I would have failed in the Chinese education system. But you know, there's,
John Moody:I would not have moved forward and gotten any more.
Ken LaCorte:There's also good example of the when, when they say that China is graduating more engineers every year than America graduates, students, there's an example of, if they're all pulling the oars in the same direction, the size, that the sheer size of that country will do a lot for them. Now, again, they might not be able to feed themselves. And that might bring some extra problems on there. But But it's an interesting concept.
John Moody:And it's not just the Chinese universities, when they send students to foreign countries to learn, especially the United States. Before they go, they give them a little talking to, which is now you're going to go to Harvard, and you're going to study economics, or you're going to study biochemistry. Remember, mom and dad still live back here, right? And we know where they live. So you don't want to do anything, not just to disappoint your parents disappoint us.
Ken LaCorte:Right. Would you travel to China after you wrote a book shitting all over?
John Moody:I would certainly travel there. I have almost no chance of ever getting a visa to go. And I don't plan to go any legally.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, adult. Does anybody sneak into China and maybe from North Korea or something?
John Moody:You'll never know. But
Ken LaCorte:that said that they don't really screw around on a physical way. You correct me if I'm wrong with with foreigners, or I mean with Americans, do they? I mean, you know, clearly if you were a Chinese national and you wrote that book, bad things would happen to you or your family. I did. Does that extend out to two Americans? You know, I know the American passport isn't worth what it used to be worth.
John Moody:i I have no evidence of it. It's certainly not that, you know, they're not vengeful, or they are, but I don't know.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah. Well, if you go Don't Don't take your clothes off and in the hotel room because there's gonna be video of it somewhere.
