John Ondrasik | The "Five For Fighting" singer talks about his protest against the Afghanistan withdrawal

Five for Fighting’s John Ondrasik joins Ken to talk about John's protest song about the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal and its censorship. Also ... U.S. veterans, Afghanistan refugees, Ken’s time in Iraq, and Zelensky's leadership in the war in Ukraine.

To see the video version of this podcast or to find Ken in the social world, click: https://linktr.ee/KenLaCorte

Transcript

Ken LaCorte: 0:03

I just had a very cool conversation with John and Rasik. John's a pretty famous musician. He's known as Five For Fighting, which I always thought was five guys who like to fight. Instead, it was just one guy who liked hockey and did a play on words. Recently, John got a little political, he made a protest video about the United States leaving so many Americans and people who helped America behind in Afghanistan, we had a good conversation where we talk about Afghanistan, the refugees there, and the Taliban, a little bit of Zelinsky and the current crisis in Ukraine. And we talked about a good friend of ours who we both had named Andrew Breitbart. I hope you enjoy it. All right. Well, John, look, thanks for giving me the time. We've hung out on a couple of these, these these these calls before and I always enjoy it. You're an interesting guy and I want to learn some stuff for what you're doing. First thing that I that I noticed when I did just a little bit of looking into your background is your first name is is a little controversial these days.

John Ondrasik: 0:59

Well, it used to be cool because it sounded like a violinist or a left wing hockey player but yeah, Vladimir these days to brings a little baggage with it. But not all Vladimir is are homicidal maniacs. And I can promise you that my dad's Vladimir, my sons of Vladimir and, you know if we're lucky enough to have a grandson, we'll have another one. So what we'll try to put the name in a better light

Ken LaCorte: 1:20

taking that seriously. Okay. All right. So nobody's kicked out of the donut store or anything like that.

John Ondrasik: 1:25

Yeah. I still go by John though.

Ken LaCorte: 1:27

Yeah. So let's let's just jump in first, too. I want to talk about I want to talk about Ukraine a little bit and, and the president there, but let's let's get into the thing that's that you've been? It's just been heavy on on you. I want to know, how did you get into the whole Afghanistan, Afghanistan kind of kind of helping out there? Because that's an interesting story.

John Ondrasik: 1:49

Yeah, you know, can I, you know, I, I had no intention of writing a political song I've, I've really kind of tried to walk the tightrope of, of presenting some of my views on my music, but not standing on a soapbox and, and lecturing people I get so annoyed when celebrities, you know, our moral betters lecture us on the culture of politics. So I've never kind of been in that lane. But of course, when Afghanistan withdraws occurred, like, like you, like all of us, you know, we were kind of just in shock, watching the images come out of trouble. And, you know, mothers handing their babies over walls and people falling from airplanes. It was kind of like a flashback to 911. I just couldn't believe what you were watching. So of course, I was angry about that. And as a songwriter, you kind of go to your piano, and you just bang on the piano more is a cathartic exercise. I wasn't planning on writing a song. But the song really started to take shape. The day after our last soldier left, I got a phone call from a friend of mine, a woman who I've known for a decade, who does incredible humanitarian work, just the salt of the earth. And she said, I need a contact. And I said, Sure, no problem, and what are you? What are you up to? And there was a pause on the line. And she said, Well, I'm organizing flights to rescue our citizens from Afghanistan. And I just couldn't grasp that. I said, so hold on. I said, I pulled over actually, I was with my family driving to Mammoth, I pulled over by Crowley lake. And I said, you know, so you're, you're telling me you're risking your life to go down and rescue American citizens that we left behind? And she said, Yes. And, and, and, and because if I don't do it, who else will? So that not I just started writing blood on my hands. Again, I wasn't sure I was gonna put it out. I didn't know what it was. But it was just kind of as a as an artist, you want to want to do something. And so I did, and, and the song finished itself. A week or so later, when the President came out and gave his extraordinary success speech. Again, that scared me. I was I was in fear for not Jeff gana, Stan. But what that meant for the future, and we could talk about the future because now we're living the future. And but I still had hope because I've I've spent my career I spent the last 20 years singing for troops. I have great respect for our military. And I expect a General Milley in General Austin to come clarify the extraordinary success line. Because I've always felt that, you know, our presidents can be crazy. They can be Orwellian. Everything's driven politically. But if it gets really bad, our generals will give us the straight, the straight scoop this the straight near the straight, honest opinion of what's happening. But when they came out million Austin and basically just echoed the political narrative of the President. I was angry, I was scared. I wrote the rest of the song that night. I recorded it the next day, and I put it out.

Ken LaCorte: 4:54

And this is no like kind of, hey, I think I know what he's talking about. This is In your face, screw you. I mean, you know, opening up with, you know, I know you have a couple of video versions of it, open it up with the press conferences and Yes guys, this was, you know, this was 60s Air I'm trying to think of the last time I've seen kind of that from from a popular well known artists that kind of a of a, you know, not not like, not like being protesting against hunger, but like protesting something that's gonna make a lot of people it's gonna get out of their craw.

John Ondrasik: 5:29

I figured I had to name names. And it was a moral exercise for me, not a political one. And I've said this many times, I've talked to you about it. You know, if Donald Trump were president, or George Bush, or we were in the same position, you know, the song would remain the same, only the names would change. But it was President Biden's decision. And it was Millie and Austin's decision not to resign. And it was Secretary Blake, his decision to go out there and play back that Bob and say, Oh, our allies are fine with this, you know, the day after Parliament condemned or withdraw. So I figured it was important to call out the folks who caused this. And to this day, there's been no accountability was not mentioned in the State of the Union. I think Ukraine, they're hoping will, you know, continue to sweep Afghanistan under the rug, but is a great moral shame for our nation. And beyond the humanitarian cost of moral costs. I think we're seeing the national security cost before our eyes.

Ken LaCorte: 6:22

Yeah, I mean, you certainly see that when bullies go after weak people, they don't go after somebody who's gonna smack them right back in the face. And when every single time in American history when we've had a president who's, you know, not been a tough guy, bad shits happen? I mean, that's just, it. Just that's,

John Ondrasik: 6:41

I mean, you look at Obama's red line, right? You look at Obama and Crimea. I think all that stuff. You know, when George Bush was president and Putin went into Georgia, you know, George Bush, you know, love him or hate him, said Condoleezza Rice rice to the capital of Georgia and said, Russia, get out of here. I don't think Blinken is going to Kiev anytime soon. But you know, it's a it's certainly, you know, Putin has been planning this for years. And it's not only due to Afghanistan, but, you know, if you're if you're Putin, or GE or Iran, and you're looking for a window to make your move, it's not surprising that they're doing it now with President Biden, if you abandon your citizens to terrorists, the Taliban, why would he think that we would stand up to anything and I think we've seen that, you know, he's been a follower on all of the the sanctions and all of the the methods to kind of stifle Putin. We tend to be like, you know, following whatever the EU does, or following whatever the public says on energy. So it's a scary time. And, you know, I think Taiwan's probably the next domino to fall, but it's just, it's really, it's really disappointing and more disappointing than the President is the military, the generals million Austin, who did not do the honorable thing resigned because they know, they know that they're on the wrong side of history.

Ken LaCorte: 8:00

Their defense is, holy shit, we put billions and billions of dollars in your hair. We thought the guys could hold on for a couple months. Right? And, but I don't, I don't recall any. I don't recall much fighting. I mean, did did ISIS actually have to fight to win? Or did they just kind of walk in? So a good friend of mine is Holly McKay, who was actually in Afghanistan has all this stuff. You know, she scared the shit out of us because you know, she decided to stay there like a journalist and and unfortunate for her when she did decide to come out of the country Taliban was actually pretty cool to her they were like, you know, she didn't have problems with it with it there now who knows how that'll change and I think the Taliban is going to be a lot meaner and more evil to to the people in Afghanistan as opposed to screwing up with it with the Americans. But she was kind of shocked at how fast it came and and what what she saw happening at least in her city I forget it was up in the north I forget which city it was was literally the Taliban came up to the to the mayor of the town and said look, you know, not this Americanize but they said there's two ways this can go we can come we can kill you kill all your family and you know, we're gonna win with the Americans. We were unstoppable. We're gonna win now without them. It's only a matter time, or here's some money, take care of your family, you know, get get a house out here and lay down all your arms and give us all that that military equipment and all of those guys fell one at a time.

John Ondrasik: 9:24

Yeah, no, again, I think certainly I'm no military expert, but talking to folks in the know. First of all, you know, when when when I when couple of felon a week, you know, as we're seeing with Ukraine, you know, wars have logistics and supply chains, and they don't happen overnight. And I think people people on the inside have told me like we saw this for months, you know, they were organizing, they were activating. Of course they were infiltrations but the main thing they tell me was abandoning Bagram you know when you abandon bar You abandon and the same thing we're seeing in Ukraine. You know, Bagram gave us air superiority over Afghanistan. And that's really all you need to support the Afghan army. And maybe you need 1000 2000 troops there that would let the Afghan army have some feeling that they're not alone in this. Again, who knows? We don't know alternate history. But But the other thing is a sit. Let's assume that that's right, that we were taken aback by that and all of our information was wrong. In a sane world, those people in in CIA or in operations, there'll be consequences for them. Right, you probably lose their job. If you're the if you're the general, that organize this, you might lose your job. On the other hand, if your General Milley and you say, Well, I told the President this was going to happen. And I said, Leave 3000 Troops, but he, he went against my advice, and I'm going to resign, to let somebody have the seat that agrees with him. How many generals resigned under Donald Trump? Was it what 200? I don't know. But every time a general resigned, or Donald Trump the meeting, everybody was like, Oh, this is great. The generals doing the right thing. But the most ironic thing I saw, I'll never forget when Tom Cotton was, was grilling million Austin in the hearing when he said, Why didn't you resign? And merely said, Well, that would have been a political act. When the whole idea of stain was a political act, the guy's been a political actor his whole career. So again, I think, you know, we can argue about the withdraw, what do we know, do the army commit, but what we do know is there's been no accountability and this narrative of what a great airlift we had, what extraordinary success was truly or were Orwellian, and insulting, and especially to Afghan veterans. And you asked, How do I get into the, you know, to the deep, the deep stuff with that guess on the backs. When the song came out, I got 1000s of emails from Afghan veterans who were so angry, so ashamed that their government their generals had abandoned, the Afghan soldiers who fought with them sometimes saved their lives to the Taliban. Can you imagine that? You'll remember the suicide rates for veterans skyrocketed, the suicide hotline, the PTSD is still going on. So through that, I started meeting many of these evac orgs, which is the one shining light of this whole debacle. And they actually allowed me to join some of their calls be embedded with some of their groups, because I was getting emails from people trapped in Afghanistan. That's how this is how how, how absurd Monty Python this is, is that because our State Department was not rescuing or doing anything to help our citizens and allies, they were emailing some singer, because they were desperate. And I would basically forwarded to these groups so so I was able to sit in with them. And it was so intense, it continues to be because it, we do it every week, I'll have another one on Friday, to watch these folks that mostly veterans or their families, between going to soccer practice going to work, they're organizing these events, they're raising millions of dollars, they're negotiating with the emirates to get lily pads to watch them in action. Keeping the American promise is so inspiring. And in this really cynical time, it does give me hope, for who we are. Because I know I've spoken to you in the past about the big picture. Who are we as a nation? Are we? Do we abandon our citizens to terrorists? Do we basically allow Putin to walk into a free nation? Or are we the country of Normandy and the Berlin Wall coming down? And I think that tipping point is yet to be decided.

Ken LaCorte: 13:56

So, so Afghanistan, so it's not a matter of logistics right now. It's I'm assuming and, you know, five times more than me on this. But you'd mentioned this before, when we chatted, it is it is kind of a measure of, who do we now let into the country because you have a US citizen who was was maybe an afghan, who got US citizenship. Now maybe he's got a wife or maybe he's got a family of 17 people or so how, what are the rules? How do they figure that out? And you know, because they also want to make sure that they're preventing just, you know, a few ISIS guys to slip in under that, hey, I'm off meds, meds cousin here, and all of a sudden, you know, we've got we've got bigger, bigger fish to fry. How does that work?

John Ondrasik: 14:41

Yeah, it's certainly complicated. And you're right. There are hundreds of heartbreaking stories when you you hear of you know, father gets to the plane, he has a family of eight. And, and they say, Well, you can only take five and he has to choose, you know, which which of his family members did escape and which are left to be killed and I have many stories where they were killed. I think that the end of the day, talking to the evac folks, for the most part, the State Department has been egregious Lee not doing their duty. Because I think they want to go away. It's not even about coming to America, it's about let's, let's get these people vetted, so they can go to other countries, you know, so many, so many countries, as I said, the Emirates, Qatar, Portugal go down the list will take refugees, but the State Department out of I think I saw 70,000 folks who qualify for either si V p one p twos, which means they have worked with us they've been vetted, I think only three or 4% have have gotten out. So again, I think it almost might be a greater shame than the withdraw itself is the fact that the State Department has neglected vetting the people that we promised to protect, to get them to these other countries. And they a lot of them are coming here, many of them as I said, or go to other countries. And if you talk to the the evac folks that they just their anger at the State Department, I think is even eclipses that for the President, because they're there, they have everything in place. But there's not folks, you know, we spent trillions of dollars for build back better in these insane programs. You can't spend, you know, $5 million to hire 100 more, you know, state accountants to go through this. So it's, it's just egregious. And again, I think history will reflect that on Secretary Blinken and, and the State Department.

Ken LaCorte: 16:43

You know, I remember being in Iraq, for Fox, when it was kind of when it was kind of the bad time after the main battle. This was like 2005 2006, you know, we were hunkered down. And, you know, we had we had a bureau there they had, they were this was the the rebellion time was was pretty serious. And, you know, when you have Americans there, whether it's military or whether it's news organizations, you interact with a lot of a lot of locals who get you your food, get your gasoline, get your car, you know, driving driving your How do you buy a car in Baghdad? Well, you don't other people do. So you're kind of surrounded by this by this, this group of locals. And, you know, I remember when, when, when Obama was thinking of just yanked it all out, you know, there was some discussions of how, you know, we don't want these wars to last forever, you know, how quickly to go down that and you're like, Man, I know now that these guys that I know, are going to die, because because when the bad guys win and take over, everybody in town knows who helped, you know, who helped the infidel. And it was like, you know, these guys were literally risking their lives, trying to make their country a better place. And, you know, I've never had to do that for America. I mean, you know, some of my, some of my forefathers did, but I never had to be like, Okay, I can, I can either choose to get out, or just pretend like I don't know what's going on here, or, or put your life at risk. And then to think, and when you know, these guys names, and you see their faces and know that that they're screwed if it goes south, it's it's, I understand how these soldiers, you know, especially some of them were probably had their lives saved by these guys and work, work work hand in hand. This is going to be every day that goes by though people are going to care less and less about Afghanistan, how do you kind of keep that? And and, you know, and in fairness, there's a war going on where where, you know, they blew up a hospital and all that, how do you see it playing out? Or? Or how do you how do you kind of pop that back into consciousness? Again,

John Ondrasik: 18:50

do you think it's hard? It's hard? And, you know, certainly I don't, you know, to administer Ukraine, though. At the same time, I think we're seeing two of the greatest humanitarian disasters in our generation happening at the same time, you know, 2 million refugees out of Ukraine, and Afghanistan, mass starvation. And I think we're mature enough as a nation and as a planet, to be able to address both of those issues at the same time. We're not. But it's hard. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, it's going to end bad for virtually all those people. Right? I'm on an atrocity chain just this morning, there was a policeman, he was to work with us who was killed. And to your point about the folks that that helped you and back that. It's not just them. It's their families. So the Taliban basically kills families. And they'll go in and say, Oh, you're the interpreter, okay. You help the Americans, you're dead and so as your wife and so as your children, and even to a greater extent, the national security issue of we have 20,000 Commandos, we trained that are very sophisticated, great fighters. And the fact that we haven't tried to get them out because they have a simple choice to be be killed by the Taliban, or flip and join the Taliban, and we'll be fighting them in the next four or five years, our boys will be fighting those that we trained. So the fact that we're not even thought with our weapons with our weapons that we've acquired, so the fact that the administration is not even addressing that is, is I'm not gonna say treasonous, but it's damn close. But it's gonna be hard. We have some projects, we have another cup of video projects, we are going to do a concept for Afghanistan. But I think what I'm really focusing on now is there is some a policy with on the hill, Afghan related that Joni Ernst has been working with, you know, the good news is there's actually been some consensus on the Hill about Afghanistan. And I have to give Senator Blumenthal, Senator Shaheen credit, who have not forgot about Afghanistan. Certainly, Mike waltz, one of my partners, Congressman, first Greenbrae, ever elected to Congress is not going to let it go. And many Democrats are not going to let it go. And I think once the midterms come, and the Republicans take the house, you're gonna see Afghanistan back in the news, because they're going to demand answers. They're going to hold people accountable. But it's going to be tough. I think what I'm really focusing on right now, beyond trying to get out, you know, every person you save is someone you save. But we know we can't save them all is is let our Afghan vets know that they're not forgotten. So the the concert we're doing the some of the videos we're doing are really tailored to that audience, because I think they're the ones still suffering. They're the ones being neglected. Again, the fact that President Biden did not mention the 13 families of the soldiers killed in Kabul in the State of the Union was egregious. So we want to let them know and all the Afghan folks know that, number one, we don't forget them. But history will make a judgment on this administration. And I think until there's some accountability in for General Milley, General Austin, the President will have as accountability at the polls, they'll these Afghan vets will never be able to close that have some closure. So that's where we're focusing now. But to give the backboard credit, you know, they're not, they're not giving up, they're going above around underneath the State Department, they are getting people out. And whenever I see a picture of one of these Afghan families evacuated, you know, it, it just, you know, it gives me a little bit of hope. But but but the answer to your question is, it's going to be bad for many millions of people, especially women and children,

Ken LaCorte: 22:53

can you get video? You said picture? Can you get video and pictures? And you know, I'm sure they don't have I'm sure most of the apps aren't working in Kabul right now. But that's just kind of a guess. I mean, is there a flow of information because, you know, once that gets shut off, you know, you know, it's it's like nothing happens at that point.

John Ondrasik: 23:16

That's a good question. I really don't know I do you see pictures, you know, there and to be you know, it's your profession. There is some incredibly brave reporters down there, still covering this, which is another story. And there's incredibly brave women's group are still marching in front of the Taliban. So there are so many stories of heroism down there that we're just not seeing. I do get some pictures I do get you know, some images of course the arts has been completely shut down. Artists are basically outlawed

Ken LaCorte: 23:52

the band mode they ban a lot of types of music right a ban

John Ondrasik: 23:56

virtually all music except kind of their religious music. That's another thing we've tried to do is get the actors fucked up.

Ken LaCorte: 24:04

It's like, Fuck the Nazis kept kept the opera. Right? These guys are banning kite flying and music and and pizza. It's just us. What kind of what what kind of a society on that? So So you said that's the first time of time where you've where you've gotten political in your I mean, is that a big is that a big step forward in your this is gonna thing? Is that a big step forward kind of deciding that, that I'm going to take a political stance and intermix that with my art and with my profession? I mean, you know, Sam, Sam Cooke, you know, he's got a song change is gonna come that only got popular after he was dead because he only sang it once. And he wouldn't let us he wouldn't let his his publishers put it out as a single. Because it's like, you know, I don't want to lose my career over this. How does how does that go into your head at that point?

John Ondrasik: 25:00

Yeah, I mean, when I, when I wrote the song and record the song, you know, I played it for some folks. And virtually everybody said, You can't put that out. Right. Crazy, right? And but then I, you know, it's funny I thought about a couple people. When that happened, I thought about our old friend, Andrew Breitbart, who was a warrior, and tended to put the, the health of the culture ahead of his personal ambition. I'm very lucky that I've had a nice career, and been able to realize my childhood dream. I'm also on the backside of my career. So whatever consequences come my way, really aren't going to change my life that much. I did have a talk with my daughter, because my daughter is at a very liberal school. And we see how folks can be bullied and ostracized in our colleges. Even if it's their parent, you know, saying something that doesn't fit with the political narrative of that school. I was very proud that she said, Daddy, if I get a bad grade, or people don't want to work with me, because you you're talking about people Afghanistan and their their struggle. I don't care about my grade, and I want to be their friend. It was a very one of the most proudest moments I've had. As a, you know, as a dad, I also thought, uh, John McCain, you know, I wrote a song 20 years ago called The Last Great American, I was cynical 20 years ago. And it was about John McCain. And what do you think of McCain, you know, when you have a guy who's willing to let other people leave before him when you're a prisoner of war, that means something. And, and I thought to myself, you know, this is what political songs are supposed to do. You know, I went back and listen, to secrete and stuff and Marvin Gaye and Dylan and even Neil Young, our friend, Neil Young. And I don't put myself in that class. But I'm like, This is how music makes a difference. And I had no expectation for any reaction to my song. But I'm like, you know, considering what the Afghans are going through, you know, considering what John McCain went through, if I, you know, if I put this song out, I get some, you know, somebody says, some mean tweets, or I lose a gig or somebody doesn't wanna buy a ticket. What was me and, and I still find that, you know, it's still my attitude, whatever thing comes my way is so trivial to the people I'm talking about and their plight,

Ken LaCorte: 27:33

you almost kind of, you know, certain certain artists then just lean into it at a certain point, because you might not have a choice.

John Ondrasik: 27:41

Yeah, yeah. I mean, some, I mean, what I don't want to be as the political song of the week guy. Yeah, that's true. There are some people that they found a niche. And it's kind of like conservative media, like you find a niche, you find a market, you find an audience. And I'm not saying they're doing it for any reason, that they don't believe what they're saying. But, you know, for me, Afghanistan, was different than our typical issues. It's different than, you know, abortion or education, free school choice, or even the border. Because at the border, you know, we didn't promise those people that they could come here, and we will take care of we did promise those people in Afghanistan, it's America's word, and aware America's word should matter. But I think we're seeing again, even in Ukraine, you know, we told Ukraine, what, 30 years ago, give up your nukes, we got your back. Who's gonna trust America now? I wouldn't, you know, with Afghanistan, and you know, and Ukraine. So, you know, yeah. As I said, I think the consequences of where we're at are scary and, and the American promise, as vice president solid said at the end of my blog, man's video, it's a mirror to ourselves. Like, why would anybody trust us? America is no longer the great light.

Ken LaCorte: 29:00

I'm a little bit more optimistic and a little bit less critical of us. In Ukraine. I mean, yeah, yeah. Took a couple days for the White House. They're like shit gases going up. You know what that means that the polls now they're now they'll and you know, they, one of the first things he did was, was virtue signal left and right about about slowing down, drilling, about stopping new fracking, about stopping pipelines. And so they knew that that was going to get hammered to them, but I gotta say, I've been overall and I could nitpick all of it. I think America's response to this has been pretty darn good. I mean, we've gotten them. First of all, we have gotten them a ton of armaments. We trained a ton of Ukrainians. I mean, you know, they're the ones out there dying in the streets, but they're also shooting, shooting missiles that were were made at Lockheed at people. And we're also sharing almost real time information with them. We put the screws the economic screws on Russia. Uh, more than I thought we would I didn't think that that, that both the country and I think to their credit, a lot of corporations, you know, McDonald's pulled out recently, you know a lot of them are just saying, you know, we're not going to do this anymore. So I don't know if I'm, if I'm China, maybe hopefully I'm looking and saying, You know that thing was supposed to be Crimea to that was supposed to he was supposed to march in there you know the Lensky was gone and would be gone in a few days we chop off the head, we do all that by the time the the West realizes or you know, by the time the West takes a strong look at it, we're already in we've got the tanks and in Central Square and everybody's cool. This is not going the way that that they'd anticipated that and hopefully, that's a signal that between the world and the West that that, you know, China might not have quite as easy as a time as they think they would know, I

John Ondrasik: 30:53

don't disagree with you. I certainly don't have the visceral anger toward the administration of retrain that I do for Afghanistan. Right. That said, I think their actions in Afghanistan certainly exacerbated where we are now. And gave Putin no cause. I wish we were a little more on the leadership front instead of following the EU every time and asking permission to the EU, if we can cut up Russian oil. I do think the the fact that they won't address the energy is is is is awful. But of course it looks like they're being dragged kicking and screaming to the right side of history. I think even today, there was a glimmer, that may be the Keystone, though Look at that. But no, I I agree with you. And I do think the counter argument that if she was looking to make a move, I don't think it has anything to do with this administration's response. I think it has to do with the world's response. That if they, you know, if they feel that oh, boy, okay, we're going to lose Nike, we're going to lose Apple, we're going to lose all these, you know, economic 10 poles of our of our economy. I think that scares them more than Biden. And, and yes, it's nice that McDonald's and coke left, of course, again, they were dragged kicking and screaming, being shamed to do it. But I think, you know, seeing the world's reaction seen hundreds of 1000s of people in European capitals, seeing the kind of visceral reaction of, of just ordinary citizens. I mean, in I mean, you're the expert in the digital age, watching, you know, a mom in Ukraine with an AK 47 and three kids there, say how she's gonna, you know, die for her country? I think that's giving G some pause. And of course, it wouldn't be nearly as easy for GE, you know, Taiwan can actually have the resources to fight back. But but you may be right and and again, I hope, I hope, you know, one man. You know, as Alinsky, one man is showing us that one man can change the world. And his spine and his courage has kind of shamed the rest of the Western leaders to move to the right side of history. And we may get lucky in this, you know, they may find some, you know, little bit of an offering for Putin, maybe let him keep the two independent states. And we get lucky. But hopefully the world's learned his lesson. And like Germany's doing, like most of Europe is doing like Japan is doing and reevaluating their place on the world stage. Maybe we can have some sense of sanity in this country and open up our energy. So we're not dependent. And Europe is not dependent on these, you know, on these, these evil people.

Ken LaCorte: 33:39

Although when you think of the economic dependencies that we have on China, if Russia disappeared, yes, gas goes up a little bit as it was doing anyhow. And what else? Do we have a couple brands of vodka? I don't get I mean, once, when's the last time he was like, Oh, hey, this was made in Russia. Never. Yes, China, that that, you know, we have industries here that shut down. I mean, weather, rare earth weather, all sorts of shit. I mean, that's no,

John Ondrasik: 34:05

it's no, we have a family business, too. We don't export much. But you know, so many of our suppliers and customers, they're basically went to China, but it'll really, you know, be fascinating to see the moral spine of America in the next 10 years after this event, right? Because, you know, what's gonna happen, you know, as soon as this is, is over, whatever, people like me will be, you know, screaming all right, you know, Coca Cola, Nike, Apple, you did, you're dragged kicking and screaming to do the right thing in Russia. What about the million Uyghurs? Yeah, you have no you know, especially the ones like Coke who like to lecture us about their moral better ship and, and insert themselves into Georgia voting rights and tell us how racist we are. You know, so I it'll be interesting to see

Ken LaCorte: 34:54

if that changes that Yeah, yeah, probably won't,

John Ondrasik: 34:57

but we'll see. See,

Ken LaCorte: 34:58

we're talking about celebrities. So, so clearly a brave guy, clearly, a large majority of politicians would have said, we're going to set up our government in exile in Warsaw. And, and I'll be texting over across the border and doing that. And there's a good chance that he's gonna end up dead. Yeah, within the next week or two or, or, or month or whatever. I mean, you know, he's a guy when Putin goes to bed at night, he doesn't want to murder anyone more than he wants to murder. Zelinski. That's not that's historically not a good place to be. Right. But what I couldn't also get over and I don't want to get your thinking on this was Solinsky I think because he was a performer also understood how to do it a number of things that a lot of politicians don't understand. You know, and and it was set up it was what he wears, it was the things that he spoke with it was the the personalized nature, would you look at it as a as a guy who's been up on a stage and and and, and you know, if you're not interesting, you stop making money. What did you What do you notice when you see what what, what do you think he got from being a performer that he's turned into being in the theater of leadership here?

John Ondrasik: 36:15

You know, that's funny, you're the first person who brought this up. And I've been thinking about this a lot. And I don't mean to trivialize the situation, or his place in history, they'll they'll, they'll 1000 years from now people know his name. But I think being a comedian is a big part of his character. Because to be a comedian to walk on a stage, especially as a young comedian, takes a lot of balls, a lot of a lot of courage that many politicians probably don't have, or will never have, you have to have a certain spine to do that to be to be laughed at, to be rejected to, you know, to be to be, you know, throw off tomato in your face. And so,

Ken LaCorte: 37:00

you need a solid ego. Yes, you

John Ondrasik: 37:03

do. And not to not to say that, you know, every comedian is going to become Winston Churchill. But I think you have that base, you know, I saw him on one of their dances with the stars, right? You know, the guy, certainly not afraid to take big swings, right and put himself out and he's not afraid to fail. And obviously, he's not afraid to go down with the ship. And also think, you know, when you're when you're an actor, you're a part of a collaboration. It's not always about you. It's about it's about your, your cast your team. You have to you have to, you have to have a certain humility, which many of our politicians don't. You know, I think you look at the leaders of the g7. You look at Trudeau, they're very weak. They're very arrogant. They think you're, they're better than you. Nothing they do is is wrong there. Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, if they're invaded, you know, they're on the first train out. And I think when he said, You know, when America I think, I think Biden, I think America, their whole plan was let's just manage the fall of Ukraine. When we said, alright, we'll get you out. And he said, No, man, I don't need a ticket. I need some guns. I need some ammo. Right. I didn't think they know how to respond to that. Right, because that's not who they are. You know, um,

Ken LaCorte: 38:21

but although, although I do think that our government leaked that out to help make him look good.

John Ondrasik: 38:26

Well, good. Well, good. You know, again, I tend to be pretty cynical, and, and I do believe that you're right. We're doing a lot of things under the radar that we should be doing. And I don't want to discount that. But But yeah, I think you know, I think I think his history is an entertainer, performer. Courage, certainly, you know, and his wife who was an actor, you know, I think it gives him a different perspective. Also, as you said, he's very good at playing the part. He's very good at playing the media, how the hell he's looks like he slept 10 hours a night every time he's on resumes. I don't know how he's doing that. Maybe he has a clone. But he certainly is a figure. I wrote a song about him last night. I don't know if I'll ever put it out. But he is, to me a generational figure of courage and freedom that should go down with the Washington's and the Churchill's of the world.

Ken LaCorte: 39:24

I will give him a year, let alone I know but I'm an artist, and then we're gonna find sign it and then we're gonna find out that he called some group the wrong name. And then we read the statute. Yeah, yeah. Well, but you know, but mastering the arts of communication. I mean, certainly, certainly Trump, also who was an entertainer as much as he was a builder in life. Yeah. You know, understood how to play that game. You know, Ronald Reagan was was, you know, remember back in the day when there was Ronald Reagan, it's like, oh, my gosh, are we really going to elect an actor and yeah, you know, that was a quaint or simpler time but but he He was somebody who knew how to communicate. And I think that's what turns good leaders into generational leaders. You know, you read Winston Churchill speeches today. And and or, you know, I've watched Gary Oldman be Winston Churchill probably five times in that movie. All right, but but but let's take a jump on that because I speaking to Gary Oldman. I know, he was one of the few non lefties in Hollywood, and he was part of of the thing that, that I know, Andrew was involved in starting, and it was the Friends of ape Yes. Which I want to say started. When did it start in the in the in the early 2000s? Was it post September 11? That friends have a no,

John Ondrasik: 40:45

no, it was a little earlier. It was definitely in the in the Bush years. And yeah, it was it for a decade. It was like you can't talk about the Illuminati, you know, but it's it was one of the I think it was the first musician and, and it was an incredible group. It was basically started by some actors.

Ken LaCorte: 41:12

Gary Sinise was a big part of that.

John Ondrasik: 41:14

Well, we don't we don't talk. We don't talk about that. You know, Gary, Gary is basically Bob Hope, you know, Gary's focus is Bob hill. But there were some actors that just wanted a community of folks that that maybe didn't share the far left view of most of Hollywood, that people could come to, and just speak their piece and without fear of losing their livelihoods. And it wasn't just, you know, actors that, you know, it was cameramen, it was makeup artists, it was DPS directors, it was then it musicians started coming and then it was songwriters. And, and it was really incredible thing that really could only happen in America, you know, and grew to a couple 1000 people and did a lot of events and had a lot of great time together. And Andrew, when Andrew Breitbart kind of came in, after the first year, you know, he was just a powder keg of energy and, and, you know, he'd wrote a book about Hollywood and, and the media and the culture there. And I think when he saw there was this kind of culture, he really found his people, he found his family. And it's it, he gave us energy. And I think we gave him energy. And I one of the great, the great shame, the great, sad things of his passing, was, you know, I think when we lost Andrew friend of aves, kind of lost its muse. And it was never quite the same. But boy, those years we had with him and the adventures we had, and to watch him kind of fight the culture war, were some of the greatest days of my life. And, and a lot of those folks are still dear friends, and we still get together, you know, we still get together and talk about that. And, and a lot of the folks, you know, that kind of came from Andrews tree that, you know, you know, that are kind of basically conservative media now, where young kids, it's some of those fo a garrison events and, and to see where they are now, which is, you know,

Ken LaCorte: 43:15

a lot of work directly for Andrew, you know, you see baby hero, you see

John Ondrasik: 43:19

Jeremy, go down the list. Yeah. But yeah, they, you know, to see what, what legacy he has just turn on the television or open up your computer. And it's not just breitbart.com it's virtually all those folks who are, are taking his lead and fighting the culture war. Because I still think our side doesn't get it. They don't understand the power of the arts.

Ken LaCorte: 43:41

He was the first one to even though I was in the midst of media, I mean, I was a decent muckety muck at Fox News to really say look, to really explain how elections were downstream of culture, and how it was education, media and entertainment kind of feeding into those things. And, and he was righter than a he was one of the very first persons to really, really understand that. And, you know, for him the Savior was was the internet. And, you know, because Andrew had ADD times five, right? So I mean, if it wasn't for the internet, and you probably still would have been a waiter bouncing off the walls and doing things but then the Internet came in and all of a sudden it just kind of meshed into his add, and he could control the thing. What he what he didn't live to see was the censorship in the internet takeover. You know, from from at that point in the fight. It was like the internet is our Savior. It's the Wild West it's where people can you know, you don't have to have the gatekeepers of CBS or Paramount Pictures or whomever that is and and it was so disappointing to see the rise of the of the censorship culture growing up in in the internet, I've I've always wished somebody would start something similar Friends have a job in Silicon Valley. Because yes, Silicon Valley is just as nasty as Hollywood when it comes to that. And but, but on the other hand, friends of ape did kind of peter out a little bit what it does, is that still needed in Hollywood, is it? And if and and yes or no on that, but but where then what does that say to like kind of let the young people in Silicon Valley who aren't marching lockstep with with the ideology there? How do you help them out? I mean that, you know, there's much as refugees, almost as some of the guys in Afghanistan, it's like, Jason,

John Ondrasik: 45:32

no, I think you're right. And, you know, to your point with Andrew, and canceled culture, you know, I, you know, I want a Man in the High Castle to another universe and see what happened if Andrew didn't pass away, because Andrew was better than anybody in exposing the hypocrisy of the left, right, where he could actually move the needle, the culture, and of course, the left now, his big tech, it's mainstream media. And he was so smart and so innovative in doing that. I wonder if maybe canceled culture wouldn't be quite as bad. If he was here, we'll never know. But he was one of the few people that we just couldn't replace there was there was just, they didn't have his savant kind of way to manipulate the media and expose the media. It was

Ken LaCorte: 46:16

kind of like a solid lynskey. Right, and he was a student of solid.

John Ondrasik: 46:20

Oh my god, he started quoting that to me when we first met him, like, What the hell are you talking about? Because as you know, Andrew was a liberal. And basically, what what radicalized him? Was the Clarence Thomas hearings when he saw this, this guy get a witch trial. And he's like, that's not right. Right. And he saw the media play into that. So he was he was not a political person by nature. He was actually a big music fan. He knew about more independent music than I did. He told me about the next cool band. Right. But But I don't know, you know, I think Hollywood is still it's still bad. But you know, I think with every voice that comes out, you know, one reason I wanted to put the song out, not because I'm, you know, big old rock star, but it says it was true, but every little voice gets permission. And I do think we're starting to see a little bit of pushback. I start certainly with with with Younkin, in Virginia, in the critical race theory with the parents standing up, I think, you know, with Neil Young going after Joe Rogan, and people standing up against that, right. And I think one thing that's not a silver lining, but a reality about Ukraine, and Afghanistan is when you have these big, big geopolitical issues that define the times, and you really see evil people doing evil things. I think it exposes the left in the kind of shallow nature of the culture war. It's like, you know, what, I talked to two veterans in Afghanistan, about their brothers that were left behind, you know, they'll say, you know, we didn't care about the pronoun or the person fighting next to us, we didn't care about their sexuality. So I think maybe what's happening will will, will help with the culture war, but no, it's Silicon Valley. Um, maybe they have one, maybe they don't I wish Elon Musk would start one. Because that guy seems to have a little bit of sanity. But But yeah, so many people still, you know, fear for their livelihood. And when I put the song out, you know, when YouTube took the song down, you know,

Ken LaCorte: 48:13

I was talking about that. That was too crazy story.

John Ondrasik: 48:15

So yeah, so you know, the video, I made a video, basically to the song. It was wasn't really my opinion, as you said, it was news clips telling the story, I play the song from the White House, I had saw, let's say a few words, put it out. And YouTube initially put a child restriction warning on it, which I appreciate it, because there were Taliban atrocity images. And it was fine. It was going viral. And then all of a sudden, some senators started tweeting it. And then about 10 days later, YouTube took the song down for graphic warning issues. And, of course, you know, first thing I did was Google Taliban atrocities and found 20 YouTube videos with images much worse than mine. I think I talked to you I talked to some other people. And eventually they were ashamed to put it back only because there was a national outcry. But again, how many musicians stood up for me? One John Rich and I even reached out some other country artists folks who are not on the radical left who kind of known for being patriots and advocates of free speech I reached out to their counsel like you guys, whether you like the song or not, this is important and know if too controversial. Afghanistan's too controversial. I got more requests from Russian propaganda media from RT, you know, RT, than I did from, you know, Rolling Stone or the music outlets to talk about music censorship. So that just shows how paralyzed the arts are and how scared people are to even support songs like mind when you were on the same side of the aisle. So to me that's very chilling. And, and I'm not sure how we come out of that.

Ken LaCorte: 49:57

I mean, I'm starting to see a little bit of hope on the on on the tech side because the profit motive I mean, we've we've seen some of you know, some companies are starting to get some good funding some have done some some, you know, reverse merger Spax on on Wall Street like Trump's, we'll see he still hasn't gotten that off the mat right now, but, but he's got a few 100 million dollars to play around with that. So I mean, I know it's I know it's been declared DOA, after his first week up literally, it's like Vanity Fair's. Like, wow, look at his numbers. It's like, yes, guess what? It's like, I can't even get on it right now. Because they, you know, they're still plugging all the wires in the back in the back thing. Right? But But when, when Ron was the rumble CEO said, hey Rogan, if they cancel you here, bring your shit over here. And I'll you know, we'll match the 100 million now turns out it might have been 200 million from from Spotify. But that was a big moment, because that's where it said, All right now, this isn't just some little guys in a garage trying to help out somebody. But you know, if if we couldn't play in the same sandbox as as the Silicon Valley primary left that the concept that an alternate point of view, or at least a certain that, and they'll change and some will fail and some will some will morph back into what they said they'd never be because it's it's hard to run. Look, it's hard to run an online an online portal or an online social media thing. Because you always have to censor a little bit. Otherwise, you get spam and you get people just just you know, you get honest to God, Nazis. I don't think there's all that many in America, but they do exist. And and so it's like, you know, you have to figure out how to how to do but then when I hear something like, like, like your thing coming, it's like, look, you can watch people be murdered, left, right and center left, right and center on on YouTube, there are 1000s and 1000s of videos of people going to their death. And the concept that that yours was singled out is it's all about virtue signaling and politics and and it's going to get worse again in the next. So assuming that our crystal balls, we kind of know what we're looking at we we assume that Republicans will take over at least one of the houses, and probably the house. But then the media goes back into if Trump runs again, the media goes back into anything that can help him at all is the equivalent of helping a Nazi in 1933, Germany. And so they will go right to the wall again. I mean, they calm down a little bit on him when he just took a took a six months powder going off. And there'll be right back in the midst of thing. So

John Ondrasik: 52:33

yeah, no, I, I agree with you. And I kind of don't understand it, you know, YouTube didn't put the song back up because there was any economic damage to them. It was because they just didn't want a little bad press. They wanted to get out of the media. And you're right, they have a they have a monopoly. Big Tech has monopoly on the platforms. And I don't understand, you know, why there's not more investment from, you know, these billionaires, Elon Musk, for example, to create their own platforms. You know, when when YouTube did tip a, took the song down, I did throw it up on on rumble and got, you know, 30,000 views within a few hours. So there's people there, it's something to grow. And also, I mean, just look, I mean, you worked at Fox News for how many years? You know, it's a goldmine. Can you imagine

Ken LaCorte: 53:20

it can be Yeah, I look? Yeah, media bias bought my house. Yes. Like so.

John Ondrasik: 53:24

So and there's so so you think if somebody you know, did, you know, a same Twitter, and I'm not talking about a right wing Twitter, right, just just a Twitter that, you know, that doesn't allow, you know, Putin to have an account and Trump not to, or a Facebook or YouTube, that is not just run by radicals? You think there'd be a great payoff in that, and I don't understand why why somebody is not, you know, really diving down and putting the resources into build that platform.

Ken LaCorte: 53:54

I think you'll start to see some of it. I think some of them, look, some of them have tried, I mean, parler was doing pretty well, until it got kneecapped by Apple and, you know, Apple and Amazon on the same day. That was one of the companies as well on that. Yeah. And that was one of the most horrific things I ever saw. That was just that was like, it was like watching a murder. It was it was you know, because after, you know, how often do you hear? How often do you hear the left saying, you know, just build your own thing? You know? Yeah, Twitter's a private company, you could do that. They did build their own thing. And then the powers that be, you know, zap them down. For completely bullshit reasons to her. It's like, well, it was you. You had something to do with the insurrection on January, it was just like, okay, that you were just waiting for a reason to kill. Yeah, those guys couldn't get off the mat. They're, they're completely done. You know, the other tricky part is when you start up and you're like a gap, for instance, what you first do is you first attract all the people who've been thrown off of Twitter. Now, a lot of them are guys like you and me who said something like, oh, it looks like a girl. Yeah, it's a word zapped out, and a lot of them are just The guys who were just too big assholes to I mean, you know, it's like there is a percentage of that nut jobs. Yep. But I think more and more you're seeing, you're going to see and I think we all have to help it as much as we can to allow those guys to be profitable on that side on that side of the aisle.

John Ondrasik: 55:17

I totally with you look, I

Ken LaCorte: 55:18

mean, yeah, Mel Gibson made $300 million, because nobody would finance Passion of the Christ did he did himself? I mean, that wasn't too bad. No, it was funny. When I was researching that I also found out that Charlie Chaplin had to finance the dictator. Yeah, because when he made when he first went into make, you know, what's turned out to be the movie against Adolf Hitler? Yeah, it was a little too early. And it was when there was a lot of pro German forces in the United States, there was a lot of there was, there was certainly a lot of you know, we still had the reaction to World War Two. So you had a lot of people saying, you know, we've done, we've done this game, we send our kids off to go die in a battle from 60, you know, some big risk game in Europe, and they didn't come back, and it looks all the same. And, and, and but it created an economic opportunity. And so hopefully, hopefully, that that's this, I

John Ondrasik: 56:10

hope, so I hope so the culture needs it, you know, and these tech platforms, and the media needs to be held accountable. You know, I mean, it'll be very, what do you think CNN is going to do? Do you think they're actually going to come back to the middle and try to actually have a business that makes money or they're going to kowtow to their current audience?

Ken LaCorte: 56:28

So the guy who has been tapped to run it has made some conciliatory statements, or at least those have been interpreted by people who know him as saying he wants to tack to a little bit more pure news. He wants to stop getting a direct a direct food fight with Fox News, because they keep losing. You know, here's here's the dirty secret in that, though, is they did that partially because of politics. But they did that because it was the financially smart model to do. I mean, like, when Fox News started off, we saw the we saw the country, as always, I mean, the country has been divided, almost 5050 Left, right. Since you and I have been born, right. I mean, every president dental election has been within five or 10 points, right? So the country is always that. And the media was was I would say when when Fox started off 25 years ago, it was 1515 20 degrees to the left. wasn't crazy. It wasn't MSNBC, it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, rah, rah, like, like CNN has turned out to be. And when we started off, we were like, Okay, we're gonna be 15 degrees to the right, of course, they all said, Oh, my gosh, you're a bunch of crazy reactionaries. And what on that because Because from their point, everything that we did, like crazy to us, just happened to be closer to the center of American mass, which is why we made you know, trillions of dollars there. But over the years, even there, and the Internet has something to do with that, but it's also just people like getting news they like and getting news that they don't make doesn't, doesn't doesn't make them think too hard. That doesn't, that doesn't upset them. So it's like, remember the show Hannity and Colmes? Well, you know what, when they dumped combs, the liberal Hannity's numbers went up. And so all of a sudden, we went from a channel that had the morning show where they're, they're, you know, just talking and having fun. And the evening primetime that then all of a sudden you started getting primetime, where you had the talkers, and you had the ability. Reilly, you had Sean Hannity, now you see that peppered more throughout the news day. And and those shows, you know, when you were a straight news anchor, you looked off and you were like, why those guys making twice as much money as me and why they had to get in twice as much. So it's like, people got the news they deserved to some extent, and, and then when the internet came out, it just, you didn't have to sell a newspaper, you had to sell every story had its own headline. So it's like, you know, when I ran foxnews.com, we actually had and everybody has all the big guys have this. When you would write up an article, you would have your, your, your editor write three or four headlines for it. And those headlines would be computer wise served out to a number of served out to a couple 1000 people and whatever one clicked the best. That was the one that then got served out to the to the to the rest of the you focus group your headlines, but it was in real time in computer thing and it just amazing. It absolutely well, but you know, you got to be careful on that. Right. Yeah. Because, you know, nuanced, you know, a story that said Trump got some things right and something's wrong as president, nobody clicks on that. It doesn't get shared on Twitter. It does. You know, you don't send it out. You know, think of the last time even you like, sent something off to your, your, your body on that. It's like you normally do, it's like, oh my god, they just turned a two year old transgender and that's what you said up and those things clicked so so there's a heavy financial mix into this as well. I think CNN went to The left originally because what they were always at the left, they went hardcore as, as fox went hardcore to the right to I mean, they both kind of did that. And, and and you know being that straight news, I don't know how well that would sell right now now I hope that we kind of mature as a society and I hope that some of that stuff works. Because it's created a thing where, you know, I can't find real stories to certain, you know, like I love Breitbart, right. Yeah, I love I love breitbart.com. But you read it, and they're clearly coming off from such a, you know, when they use the word Chrome, you know, Hillary, if a story says Hillary and her cronies, and it's like, okay, I know where this is coming from. And now it's like, they're not lying. But I bet they left some important things off the table, that I have to now go to CNN to find out what that was. And, you know, we can more easily do that than when we were 20 years old, and all we could get as the LA Times or something. So I don't know where the media is going. I still think it's got some ugly, ugly paths before. No,

John Ondrasik: 1:01:01

no, you know, my favorite show was crossfire remember back in the day, Crossfire, you know, because I learned a lot. I didn't know what to expect, right? And at the end of the episode, they shook hands. And it was and I think, as a society, we've lost that. And we're seeing the results of that. You know, in, in, in the culture and in, frankly, who we elect, I think there's good argument, the past president and the current president and really not fit to be president. But we become so skewed and so tribal, that we really just hate the other guy doesn't matter who ours is. But do you do you see anybody in the media kind of, I kind of look at the Wall Street Journal is someplace where I go that I don't know what they're gonna say exactly. You know, right. With most media, as you said, you go to the website, you basically write their own stories, you know, what their narrative is going to be. But you know, I do look, you know, I do look at the Wall Street Journal, sometimes as as kind of straight shooters, you see anybody else trying to kind of find the nuance in the culture in the news. So

Ken LaCorte: 1:02:07

a lot of them are good if you stay away from politics and culture, right? I mean, a lot of them are good when it's on science although even then you know, you found out that yeah, you read it and you're like Jesus and you have to scratch certain certain parts of it. There is no single source that I go to that it's like ah, I feel comfortable I have a I have a tab on my computer that I'll open up 15 websites and I'll go cruising cruising through that I do find that like like for for kind of centrist but but not nasty conservatism. I'll go to Brett Humes Twitter page for his Yeah, he gets some stuff in there. He was not he was not a heavy Trump guy. So so he didn't drink all that kool aid on on there. So So there'll be a handful of people. I'll look at some of the ones who came cross over who like a Glenn Greenwald is now you know, where he's gonna come. He's, he's, yeah, he's, he's, you know, he is liberal. He is his anti kind of serious projection of American power, which that's, uh, you know, we've been in a lot of wars since we've been alive. And you know, who would have thought Afghanistan lasted 20 years? I mean, I would have given you I would have given the odds that that wasn't gonna happen the 20 years later we were still going to be be shooting people in Afghanistan. But I take a look. I'll give you one guy and and I wish he was I wish he talked more about that. I'm Joe Rogan. Yeah, I mean, to me the that one of the few bright spots and it's why I started this podcast. One of the few bright spots in the whole media landscape was was watching Joe Rogan, who I don't watch or listen to all that often, but it's like, he could have a normal conversations like this. And it wasn't only that, but then it's like, people dug it and people dug him you know, he wasn't intentionally trying to convince people that he was right on things or mislead them. And nobody believes that about CNN or or even Fox unless you know, except for you know, when you agree with them, you love them when you don't so so some podcasts out there but I don't know Do you see any bright spots out there? Again, Wall Street Journal is you know, I I view them as pretty fair, they would be called conservatives by liberals. But I feel pretty good about them most of the time, but they're still kind of business

John Ondrasik: 1:04:21

business to that to that I've kind of subscribe to that I I really appreciate who are liberals Barry Weiss for one right you know, who's a New York Times editor who basically got canceled from the New York Times who has been really good on free speech and smart and I don't agree with her on much of her politics, but she's honest and and and Mattei EVs, the other one, you know, used to write for Rolling Stone, and even he's called it you know, something that used to be a rock magazine, and he was actually kind of friendly adversaries with Andrew back in the day and and he also talks about free Speech and, and I don't know what he's gonna say. Andrew Sullivan, I think could be interesting sometimes. But But you're right. It's really more of the the substack people, Joe Rogan, you know, they see about Rogan, as opposed to virtually everybody we talk about is, you know, he could say he could change his mind. He could say, I'm sorry, maybe I was wrong. Yeah. You know, what media figure has come out and done that what politician Trump never apologized, right, and has never apologized? You know, we've forgotten this thing of people. Like let's listen and maybe reconsider, based on the evidence not not our tribal nature. So I agree with you. Rogen, I think is a shining light. I was sad to see him kind of bend apologize. A little bit, you know, but again, that's kind of I think who he is. And he's not, he's not, he's not on a side. I just

Ken LaCorte: 1:05:51

think a lot of it. I think a lot of it is the medium. Right? I mean, if Trump started apologizing, Trump wouldn't have been President. And I can't tell you how many times I've had, like, political consultants call me up and be like, he's fucking up, he's gonna die. He needs to he finally did this. And and, and, you know, Trump just kept like, saying, you know, the bigger of a, the, the more names that I call people, the higher I keep raising in the polls, and I'll stop doing it when it stops working. And it eventually did, if you recall, it eventually did it was right after the was right after the convention. When he when he was too snotty with, with with the one gal who had lost a son in Yes, lost a son in the war. And he was like, I'm surprised, you know, he trumped her. And that flipped on him. And that was the first time that he then he fired a couple people he brought in a different a different team. You know, he certainly wasn't blaming himself. And, and but but but going back to the medium, I think is is important because, you know, not having more than just a sound bite having. You know, one of the biggest things I mean, I had a hit job on the New York Times did a hit job on I actually tried to come out, I started my news thing I hired my former boss from from Fox News, John moody, I hired didn't hire him, but we pulled him in as a consultant and gave him a piece of company, a guy who was a big NPR editor, very lefty, micro rescues great guy on the left, but more about being fair and balanced and telling the truth as opposed to trying to get things done. And I still got wiped out. Well, first of all, what it was hard, it was hard to get attention. Because not coming out with you know, it's easy just to come out with hardcore conservative stuff, or hardcore liberal stuff. It's not easy to get that, that thing that's not centrist. That's just that's just intellectually honest. And that's, that's what drives me crazy when I watched the New York Times. And yeah, they did a hit job on me. And basically, it was like, if you're ever so you know, you're gonna be Mr. Conservative from now on, that you just won't be accepted. You will be you will be that you will be seeing through that prism no matter what, because that's the way that prism looks at people, which,

John Ondrasik: 1:08:03

yeah, it's disappointing. You know, we've lost nuance, and we've lost the ability to listen. And I've learned that over the last three months, actually, kind of for the first time, you know, living in the world of conservative media, and doing all these television shows, you know, you got two and a half minutes to do your rant. And you better say something somewhat provocative, to get asked to come back. Um, you know, for better or worse, I'm getting a lot of these inquiries that come talk about Ukraine. And I'm like, you know, there's probably people that are talking about Ukraine, I don't know, if I read a song,

Ken LaCorte: 1:08:39

but you wrote a song about Afghanistan, what do you think about the the Ukraine Army? And they're,

John Ondrasik: 1:08:44

you know, it's, well, it's because, you know, because I I was critical of, of, of the President and, and I think deservedly so, and, and I also realize if the songs about Trump, I'd be, you know, probably have the seat on the view right now. I understand that the nature but you're right, the age of nuance, where we have these longer conversations, like we've had, you know, in this hour and a half or so I think that's where it has to go. That's the only productive medium and I love to see Joe Rogan getting you know, 100 million dollars for having that platform and making that and, and again, it's great that you're doing this i i really enjoy these podcasts much more than the news hits because they're actually constructive. And we learn and, and this is the only way America is going to get out of its culture war and it's tribalism.

Ken LaCorte: 1:09:33

I saw Chris was so I was waiting. So my girlfriend is a reporter for for the the national Fox News Channel. I don't watch a whole lot of TV but when she's on TV, I tried to I tried to get there for one of her head. So I went on and I was on it was on a Sunday and I was on the local channel, which was streaming Chris Wallace. Chris Wallace, so I thought I was watching the other channel. This was back when during the Trump years and and it was when I was just getting into Rogen a little bit and and Chris was interviewing who was who was the press spokesperson for Trump the blonde gal?

John Ondrasik: 1:10:04

Oh, Kaley. No.

Ken LaCorte: 1:10:07

I'm the one with the husband who kept going after. After Trump.

John Ondrasik: 1:10:12

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, God. Kelly, Kelly. Kelly Kelly. Yeah.

Ken LaCorte: 1:10:17

Con Conway. Yes. And he interviewed her for about 15 minutes. And it was clear that he being Chris Wallace. So I generally like I didn't like him at the at the debate. But you know, he's a lefty, who is who was generally pretty fair as as a journalist. And he spent 15 minutes, just trying to get her to admit that Donald Trump was an asshole. It was like, Well, the President said, you know, whatever he said, poopoo kaka and I hate my mom. Okay? Do you think that's bad, and then she would have to throw elbows in this. And I watched that thing for 15 minutes, literally not trying to I was waiting for my girlfriend to come on TV because I was on the wrong channel. And, and I was like, I learned absolutely nothing from that. Whereas when I watched a Rogan with, with a guy with a presidential candidate, and you know, when he had Andrew Yang on, it was like, Okay, that was the most I ever learned about Andrew Yang, in over the course of the over the course of the President didn't really dig him at the end of it. I liked him as a guy, I just thought his his central part of giving everybody an allowance of the country might not be economically smart. That's that's where I go. So yeah, so it's the only bright spot. I hope we can hope we can dredge that out a little bit more.

John Ondrasik: 1:11:31

No, I hope so. You know, it's gonna take some people that are committed and and, you know, are gonna have to really dig in, because as you said, the the economics tend to not be there. But again, I think with all that's happened in this last year, so many huge things have happened. That I think there are some people should, I daresay, waking up to, to, to be adults in this in this world with the consequences we're seeing and the things that are on the line and, and maybe willing to, to put their biases their tribalism aside a little bit. But I don't know, I, you know, I don't know, we're so imbedded that it's really going to take some courageous people to, to be able to do that. And it's on each and every one of us to least listen to the other side. And how do you

Ken LaCorte: 1:12:16

do that on your, on your personal level with your, with your friends on the other side of the aisle?

John Ondrasik: 1:12:21

Well, it's funny, I have a good buddy, who was one of the greatest musical writers full times very lefty, very liberal. And I remember when we first became friends, we actually wrote some songs together. When he found out my my politics, he, he just couldn't equate in his mind how this person that he thinks is a decent person, or maybe a nice guy could believe this, this evil, racist, sexist genocidal stuff. Because, of course, he'd only been watching that one side. And, and but he was decent, and has a big heart to at least ask why. And we start to have these conversations. And and so we do are allowed to understand each other's perspective. And a lot of times we're like, oh, well, I understand why you feel that way may not disagree. So I do have some some folks that, that I have great relationships with, where we can actually have the discussions and at the end of the day, if you know, whether we change each other's minds or not, you know, shake hands, give each other a hug and understand that we basically want the same things. We just have different ways of going about getting there. And so I'm very fortunate to have some good friends like that, but it's, it's tough, it's tough to find resources, you know, in the news to get the other side because the other side tends to be so toxic. It's never about information. It's about you're racist, you're sexist, you're transphobic but as you said, that's what drives their cliques and and that's what cuts down the conversation.

Ken LaCorte: 1:14:02

You know, I so I live up in the bay area so 90% of my friends are left of center some very far left to center I got a group of people who I've known for years now that from Burning Man, yeah. And they kind of let you know they scratch my head and I refuse to talk politics when I'm there. But I'll pull over you know, sometimes they'll come aside and they'll ask that question it's like you know, can you really don't look like a Nazi do D hate gays is that and, and it's interesting, it really puts you in a different mindset when you're like, look, I really love this guy who I'm talking to this love thy neighbor, this is a friend I would I would go to bat for him. And he thinks goofy things and he thinks I think goofy things and and you know, so once in a while I'll squirrel off and grab a beer with one of them. And we'll talk about that but it's funny because like that same guy though, if they text a headline or this or that. It's like I can't do it because they'll text well what about Republicans on this and I'll give like, you know, I'll start To write the snarky answer like, you know, like when you're in front of Twitter I mean, yeah, Twitter's like it's it's it's it's fucking soul sucking I mean it's it turns you bad because it's like the snarky hast jerky is thing that you can come up with a zing the other side or the or the lamest straw man argument or, you know, you can find some crazy liberal anywhere or crazy conservative everywhere. And and so it's like some of them I'm like, I won't text you, let's just go grab a beer or let's have a zoom call and do it and it works much better. It's just always done.

John Ondrasik: 1:15:30

No, you're right. You know, if Dante was alive today, he he definitely have a ring of hell for Twitter, and a lot of us would end up there. It is it you know, I, I despise Twitter. And but I use it to the nth degree and I don't like myself on Twitter. Because I tend to be cynical and snarky. I tend to be everything I hate. So I agree with you. You know, I was talking to someone the other day, you know, I think the pandemic really exacerbated the divide. Because so many of us were not socializing. We weren't having exactly what you're talking about having a beer communicating face to face, where we're not going to say certain things face to face that we would say on Twitter, right? We'd have a sort of expect for the humanity of the person. Right, but we were so basically, you know, locked down in our rooms, angry, depressed, it just brought out the worst of us social media just exacerbated the hellscape. That is social media. So yeah, you know, I agree with you, I think I think the more we can just be together, and have these conversations. It's just for our own well being as human beings, you know, in the culture, too. But personally, for me, I try to do that as much as possible. And virtually all my friends. You know, I live in California, as you did in San Fran, it's the same with me, they're all at 90%. You know, there ain't no blue dog Democrats forget their, you know, their Marxist. You know,

Ken LaCorte: 1:16:52

it's, it's kind of fun, though, I find sometimes because sometimes you can actually. So when I, when I talked with them, what I tell myself is, I'm never going to try to convince anybody of what I think I'm just gonna tell them why I believe this. Yeah. And what I find is time after time, because of the division of the media, I can tell them things that a perspective that they just hadn't heard. And it might have been as simple as I was at a party after school shooting, and a woman was like, How can anybody have a gun in America? And it was like, Well, okay, and, you know, walk through the Second Amendment, the concepts of it historical, you know, the percentage of likelihood that governments will end up killing you over over time. And I was aided by the fact that Donald Trump was the president. And so it was like, and some people think that, you know, to stop somebody like Donald Trump from becoming a dictator, maybe he should have known all the guns. It was it was like, you know, it was it was, it was new information that they didn't hear by ever listening to kind of their, their own their own isolated silo. And I think we need more of that.

John Ondrasik: 1:17:51

Yeah. And one thing I've actually been doing a lot with my friends in a very kind of subtle way, is I've been using my experience in Afghanistan, the last three months about these evac works, and, and, you know, when whenever they they, they come at me with, well, your side, or you're sexist. You know, you just hate women. I go, do you understand that the greatest women's rights decimation is happening right now in Afghanistan, caused by Joe Biden, and these girls are still not in school, and all of your heroes, your Elizabeth Warren's of the world, your AOCs are saying nothing about that. Does that not bother you? And it I think, you know, again, Afghanistan expose, you know, I tell them about these evac, or guys, a lot of them are Christians, you know, white, you know, Republicans, everything, everything the liberals hate, and I said, Yeah, I talked to him today, you know, he just rescued two, two gay men from Kabul, because they're beheading gay people down there. And he's, he doesn't care. He's just doing the right thing. Have you heard anything about, you know, gay rights in in Kabul while you're arguing about pronouns? And they really have no answer. And I think they're actually scratching their head, and they're understanding that so much of this virtue signaling, these human rights advocates have nothing to do with actually helping people or social justice. It's a power play. And, and, and I'm not saying they're changing their mind, but they don't have a good answer to that a good comeback. And I think, you know, these big events in the world, hopefully you're having people maybe question their own narratives, as I question mine.

Ken LaCorte: 1:19:42

This war made me think, watching Putin say this country next to me, and I'm not giving him props, but watching Putin say, this country next to me has become a strategic threat to my country, and I'm going to send troops in there. You know, it was kind of a flashback to 2000 to 2003 Iraq. Yeah, you know, cuz we were saying the exact same thing. And you know, Saddam was a lot worse than this little Zelinsky guy but you know, it was still you know, we were dropping bombs on hospitals and we were we were we were not intentionally killing civilians but we we killed 1000s of 1000s of people there because we felt threatened as a nation. Yeah and it made me think a lot of like, Alright, now what do I really believe now that I'm seeing the same the same problem from from two sides of the coin, you know, one on my side and one on the other guy side. So hey, if so somebody wants to get involved in in helping out the Afghanistan stuff what's the smartest thing for them to

John Ondrasik: 1:20:37

do? Now appreciate that? You know, we actually have a charity called What kind of world do you want calm I sent it up. I set it up years ago to help autism and ALS and we've kind of pushed it into Afghanistan now so if you want to make it easy if you go to what kind of world you want calm, okay, you can donate there go to actually a California Community Foundation. It's a 501 C three tax deductible those we all I do is I filter your money to these various orgs right, but it's also very easy to just Google project Exodus relief top pineapple Argo, if you want to help these NGOs, every dollar you spend, get somebody out it cost five to $10,000 to rescue one person. So it's very expensive. But more importantly, just don't forget about Afghanistan. Don't forget about these people, hold your elected representatives accountable. Do the right thing. You know, we're all Americans. It's a moral issue. Our promise matters. And if we just kind of turn the page and sweep them under the rug, who are we? And I think that alone is something we all can do.

Ken LaCorte: 1:21:41

Very good. Very good. All right, dude. Well, look, next time we get together let's try to disagree about something.

John Ondrasik: 1:21:47

I love learning about all the media you know, it's fascinating to hear you know, from you, it's so again, just like Breitbart, I think, you know, to me, we can blame Biden we can blame Trump to me it really goes to the media and if we don't fix the media, we're chunk of it.

Ken LaCorte: 1:22:01

It's that and it's it but it's also us. It's the boat. Yeah, we we, we vote we click we forward we we call people names on Twitter, we do this but yeah, yeah. But ya know, some ugly forces have have made made things a little a little rougher here.

John Ondrasik: 1:22:20

But no, I think you're right. Y'all should look in the mirror first. Thank you for that. Kendrick. Cool.

Ken LaCorte: 1:22:24

All right, dude. Thanks for your time.

John Ondrasik: 1:22:26

Let's do this again. Take care. Bye bye.