Elephants in Rooms
Hi, I’m Ken LaCorte. I spent 20 years behind-the-scenes at Fox News and now host “Elephants in Rooms”.
Here, we jump into topics that many people avoid and that the mainstream narrative often vilifies. Even when they’re true.
If you’re looking for true insight into issues – without straw men or sensationalism – you’ve found the right place.
Elephants in Rooms
Hit job? I talked to a NYT writer about his Tucker book | Jason Zengerle
The New York Times has rarely been kind to conservatives, and that’s true now more than ever.
That’s why when I got an email from a New York Magazine writer – asking me for an interview for his upcoming book on Tucker Carlson – I hesitated.
I agreed under the condition that we talk on video, so I can publish the conversation in full.
Here it is.
To watch the video version or find me in the social world, click here: https://linktr.ee/KenLaCorte
Good evening and welcome to Tucker Carlson Tonight as Tucker Carlson's popularity rose at Fox News, he became a media target. The New York Times in particular, in one orgy of outrage The Times released five separate pieces in a single day. Their main claim paces racist, racist. For one article, The Times assigned nine staffers to watch every episode of Tucker Carlson Tonight, their story mentioned the word white 70 times. So when I got an email from a New York Times magazine writer to interview me for his Tucker Carlson book, I hesitated. I don't trust them at all. So I asked him to interview me here on this podcast. We talked about his book a lot about Tucker and Fox News and a bit about how the media went off the road. So Jason, hey, thanks for thanks for being here. Thanks for doing this in this format. Sure, I get an email out of the blue saying I'm a New York Times reporter writing a book on Tucker Carlson, I generally assume that that's going to be a thinly disguised hit job on somebody on Fox, but I read your past stuff. You wrote once on them. It started off with a nasty probably one of the nastier intros to any any story I've read. But then you got a little bit more fair as it went by Do you remember your intro? What was in which story? The only one that you really wrote on Tucker for the New Republic? Oh,
Jason Zengerle:oh, yeah.
Ken LaCorte:This is this is the opening graph. I love it. If you're a journalist, chances are you've had some pretty low moments in the last few years as your industry has imploded all around you. But in your darkest hours, you were always able to console yourself with one thought, at least I'm not Tucker Carlson. So anyhow, that was 2010.
Jason Zengerle:I was
Ken LaCorte:2010. I interesting that you're talking about media implosion in 2010. And that was coined back to what you know what happened in the last 10 years? I'll never forget turning to my managing editor@foxnews.com in the Obama Romney race, saying, Man, I've just never seen the press this bias before. And you know, looking back, it was like, the quaint, the quaint 1950s.
Jason Zengerle:Well, I mean, I just remember 2010. I mean, if you think about what the media landscape look, then from a business perspective, and what it looks like, now, I mean, right. Seems a lot more quaint as well. Right? Right. Very true. Very, Tucker was in a very, like, different place, and much worse place. I think we
Ken LaCorte:lost a second show he I didn't watch him on Dancing with the Stars. And so, but he certainly rebounded since then, didn't it?
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, ya know, in a big way. I mean, he gets the last laugh on that leave.
Ken LaCorte:You and I are still not household names. And he's, he's exploded, like exploded like the sun. So yeah. Tell me about your book, what's and, and where you're going with that and how it can help you?
Jason Zengerle:Well, the book is about Tucker, and it's about his career. And I think his career kind of tells a much larger story about conservative media and conservative politics, basically, over the last 25 or 30 years. You know, if you think about the places, places restarted, more or less with a Weekly Standard, and the places he's been over time, you know, whether it was Crossfire, or MSNBC, you know, he, he's the person who discovered Rachel Maddow, he created the Daily Caller, which I think was a very, it was a, it was a more interesting and probably more important publication than we give it credit for. And I think that it played a very, I think, big role, maybe in his own kind of development, ideologically. And then obviously, what he's doing at Fox now, I just think that that story is speaks to a much larger story. So he's a really interesting character, you know, obviously very smart, very talented. And he's just, he's someone who is interesting to write about, and all the various institutions he has either been a part of, or created, I think, a really interesting, interesting to write about. So that's, that's the chapter. That's what I'm trying to do.
Ken LaCorte:So if you actually wrote a book that made him look good, all of your colleagues would stop talking to you. So you've got a built in meter of if you if you trash them, and it's a complete hit job, obviously, nobody you know, it's like a Don Jr. Book, right? It's like, fuck, you can't even get through the first paragraph of it, right? Because because there's only so much people are willing to buy a book if they if they hate somebody, if you but if you kind of trash them decently and don't make him look good, you get plotted some pundits and you'll be booked on MSNBC and CNN and all of that stuff if you actually kind of did this in depth thing and came to the conclusion that you know, he's not a threat to democracy I you know, I don't think Fox would have your I think you would get you get relegated to the not share button on Facebook. I mean, how do you how do you deal with that as, as as a writer, if you're coming into this with any amount of of like intellect So honestly, I just want
Jason Zengerle:to take him seriously. I mean, I think he should be taken seriously. I think he's, I think he's a really important and powerful figure these days. And I think he should be taken seriously and scrutinized and you know, we'll see where that goes. I mean, no one's all good. No one's all that. That's that's the way I approach all of my subjects. But you know, I just I just want to take him on his own terms and take him seriously All right, so that's what I'm
Ken LaCorte:probably the best buy away river read on a political figure was was Robert Caros one of his many books on on Lyndon Johnson. I think I started off with the the first one the first and and to me kind of sometimes the best is like you put it down and you're like, he said, some really rough stuff in there and expose some some warts while the Johnson was pretty big unexplored, exposing anything that he could have. But it was at the end of it. You were like, this was just fascinating, because I really understand I believe how that person how that person ticks.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, I think that's I think that's everybody. Well, not everybody's goal. But certainly that is my goal. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So look, I
Ken LaCorte:worked at Fox from beginning in 99. Running the west coast for a few years. I was like the number two editorial person on the news side of Fox for a couple years. And then I ran the.com For about a dozen. Yeah. So what can I tell you about Tucker or Fox during during that time or after?
Jason Zengerle:So you were very close to Ailes? Right? Yeah,
Ken LaCorte:I was. As I was like, my second father, and I got my first job, my first job that wasn't like a quickie mark. With him when I was 22 years old. This was a communication show. This was at his at his political communication thing. And he had just signed on George Bush senior to do his to do his his his TV and radio ads. And I was literally a student in New York City. Huh.
Jason Zengerle:How did he find you? Or how did you find him?
Ken LaCorte:I wanted to run political campaigns. So so it was the very first year of a school called the GSPN Graduate School of political management, which is about George Washington, but it was an independent thing. There were 30 kids in there. Two of them were Republican. 28 of them were Democrat. I live in San Francisco now. So I've always been my life. And he said, Send me over Republican. And and that was man. I hadn't heard of him at that time. crazily enough. Oh, really. So. And that was right on his ascendancy of when he when he kind of got huge with that campaign.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, yeah. Okay. So then you sort of followed him to Fox eventually. Yeah. So when? So when your Fox and you know, 2010. And when I'm writing that story about Tucker back then, I think that was probably reading that story appeared probably right before he eventually signed his contributor gig with Fox or maybe it was right after? Yeah, I
Ken LaCorte:think he came in around nine or something. Yeah, I believe he was. Okay. I believe he'd lost his the MSNBC show that came after the CNN show. And yeah, he came in as a contributor. Yeah. So he
Jason Zengerle:was fired at the end of OA at MSNBC. And then I think he had a little bit of time, where he didn't have a gig at all. Do you recall what, you know, you went What else was thinking about Tucker at that time? Because he'd been pretty hard on Fox at CNN and MSNBC said some pretty mean things. Yeah.
Ken LaCorte:Which, which is actually kind of pretty rare. I mean, Roger, Roger, Roger was a tribalist. And, and he, you know, he really, really didn't like people who trashed Fox and he was totally fine to to keep keep those people away. In fairness, it was, you know, we had probably over 100 contributors. So the onboarding of Tucker wasn't was certainly something that there were conversations about, I was on a twice daily call with with, with Roger, and an editorial gang. And I never really recall it had been brought up that would have would have come. So Fox was was an, I believe still is split into kind of two divisions. It's got the news division, which was under John moody, and whatnot. And then it's got the programming division. All contributors, for the most contributors, and basically, everybody's sitting down anchors and opinion people. We're all on the programming side. Anybody standing up was usually on the news side. Haven't
Jason Zengerle:heard put that way before. That's actually okay. It was kind of easy
Ken LaCorte:shorthand. And, and so, the short answer is, I have no idea. You know, I know that Roger liked pulling people from other you know, he, he liked pulling people out of CNN and MSNBC. He relished himself. A lot of times somebody from literally they would be like, Roger, I'm renegotiating at CNN. Can we have lunch and so he taken to a lanes they'd have a lunch where everybody in the journalism industry would see it. And from Rogers point of view, it was it was an upside it was like if he costs the UN and$2 million more because they were afraid that that guy was going to come to Fox. Great if he if somehow they got on well, and he hired somebody over from from from the The opposition, you know, like Greta, that was a win too. So Roger was was happy to poach anybody who he thought was decent from from the other channel.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, but it wasn't poaching.
Ken LaCorte:It definitely wasn't poaching at that point. And again, he was such a, I don't wanna say he was such a minor figure, but because because, you know, he did have shows out there he was somebody, but it wasn't like there was a big debate that I was familiar with.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, I mean, was it was it typical to take someone who was seemingly damaged goods like him at that point?
Ken LaCorte:You know, Roger did a lot of that. Roger, Roger often would see somebody at added opposition and say they're being misused there from a TV aspect. Yeah. So, you know, Lucky hired Don Imus because Don Imus, you know, he would often pull in people who had a career said one or two stupid sentences like the nappy headed hos comment from from Don Imus get blown out and say, I can get that guy on the cheap. And so he did do that a number of times. So I don't know if Tucker was seen as damaged goods. You know, I don't think anybody said his show failed out there. Because I think there would have been as much blame towards MSNBC and CNN as him for the reason that he disappeared. It wasn't like he completely screwed up. And and oh, wow, he was. So I don't even know if I find the Jon Stewart
Jason Zengerle:episode, which, you know, I think colored a lot of people's impressions of him. That was a pretty, you know, it's like, led to the demise of talk or of crossfire. And yeah, you know, I think you can look back on that episode now. And, you know, and see it as an inflection point where he has inflation, but also sort of, you know, Stewart's critique, I think, doesn't necessarily hold up all these years later, if it held it up at the time, but certainly now, you know, the idea of like, opposing sides talking to each other doesn't seem like that bad thing.
Ken LaCorte:But it's not it's not around anymore. I mean, how often does I mean, that's what I mean. Yeah, it's like, and look, I watched that whole progression of I mean, we used to have Hannah Arendt going at a certain point that Hannity and Colmes they had Greta, who was no liberal and and a Riley who was I call them more of a populist conservative than a, you know, than a movement conservative. Yeah, was like, that was a pretty balanced lineup. But but it was also considered radical at the point. I mean, because we used to joke that Hannity was the only left right guy with a guy on the right looked better than the guy on the left. I mean, because that's what we grew up with. We grew up watching Crossfire and who's the conservative, it's like, you know, Robert Novak, whose nickname was Satan, or something, some darkness Prince, Prince of Darkness. So, you know, we kind of I grew up watching those decks, seemingly somewhat stacked, and when we stacked them a little bit in the other way. You know, it seemed to be you know, then everybody noticed.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah. So he comes on board doesn't probably don't know. what point do you notice him? At what point does he cross your radar at Fox? You know, I know you have 100 contributors. You got a lot of people.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, I mean, the thing about Tucker is Tucker is really fucking smart. And he says smart things. And, you know, you can disagree with his conclusions or say that he's not nuanced enough on his on his on his show. But when Tucker wasn't, you know, he would so he would be an often guest he filled in for for, I think he filled him for Hannity and some other things. He, you know, coming in, he actually had, I think, a little bit more, a little bit more background and power in the sense that he had an ongoing news entity that I think was doing pretty well right, right then and I think it was burning money. So it wasn't like he was standing on the corner, you know, with this with his hands out looking looking for crumbs. He was somebody who had something going in life. I was talking to somebody recently and the phrase that he used is Tucker earned it. Tucker was was a good guest he was prepared he was often on there you know, all everybody who was a for the most part everybody who is a political contributor on Fox is hoping to become full time and everybody who is who has a small role on a show dreams of being a dreams of being a host I mean, you know, it's it's the ladder that you move up. But Tucker really earned it. He earned it by being smart by being prepared by the kind of doing all sorts of stuff and so it wasn't a big surprise when he got moved on to Fox and Friends morning show.
Jason Zengerle:Was that considered? I mean, was that considered actually like a step up the weekend gig on Fox and Friends?
Ken LaCorte:Oh, sure. A regular a regular gig like that from being a contributor. So Fox had a couple levels of contributors. Some of them were the technical people like the airline pilot that okay, we're really paying you because we might have to call you at three in the morning and say, Come on, into into here a plane crashed and we need to deal with this or lawyers or Dr. Who is like you're asking him on the air three or four times a day. Then there was a level of contributors. It was like, okay, they had some popularity. We were paying them basically not to appear anywhere else. If you want to see Newt Gingrich or whomever or or, or Susan Estridge, you have to come on to find a fox. Those were the. And then. So so, you know, there were a lot of contributors of various levels of expertise and popularity. And so now getting a regular gig. I know it was a it was a weekend gig, but for the
Jason Zengerle:weekend, yeah. But it had to do I mean, it wasn't necessarily a format that highlighted his, you know, political smarts. Yeah,
Ken LaCorte:I mean, I think it highlighted his quickness and his ability to think on his feet. It wasn't like a crossfire, or she type of thing. It wasn't a natural, although, you know, Fox and Friends has always been very political. In the morning, you know, as the newspaper we kind of always would see that show is just kind of a goofy people who said, who talked in the morning, and it was, and then of course, there'll be the people who take them very seriously. And it was like, how can you have a reporter or an anchor who said that? It's like, they were making pancakes at the time, just just calm down. Although it was interesting, because when I was in Israel, that show was right on in the middle of the day, just because of time, we didn't delay anything. So it was like, so in Israel, a lot of times people would get their noses bent out of shape. If they'd say something about Gaza, or Israel or whomever has it was seen as like an afternoon, big time show, not to show that started at six in the morning. I
Jason Zengerle:grew up in DC and Steve Doocy was the channel for funny news guy when he had the five minutes segment at the end of the five o'clock news, you know, there's a marshmallow tree in gaithersburg. You know, we'd go out there and like, it's just his, his evolution can be a good book.
Ken LaCorte:There's a huge market for the guy that people like and can make you laugh. Yeah. And you know, whether men on traditional news stations, whether men were paid as nearly as well as the main anchor often because it's, it was just an extra bit of, you know, Al Roker? How many I can't name 10 On Air journalists in New York City, but Al Roker, I can. Yeah. I don't know if he's alive anymore. But Roger also viewed positions like that, as as his minor league. And and Roger, you know, he, he, he very rarely would pluck somebody who hadn't done a show for a long time or hadn't done something like that, and put them into a primetime news show or something like that. Because it just, it's hard. I mean, it takes a lot of skill to be on beyond, you know, to be as interesting and provocative as you can for 60 minutes, but don't say anything so stupid that you embarrass us, okay, that's, that's something, you got to get up every morning and say, I gotta, I gotta be interesting and edgy and cool enough to get an audience because there's a million people out there with with who are common, sane and rational, and nobody just cares all that much. But not go overboard on that, to think on your feet to do all of those things to get the guest who you thought was going to be reasonable and turns out to be just an asshole? And how do you deal with that live on air? So, so that was clearly, you know, part of Rogers, part of Rogers minor leagues that.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, because other people have talked to them. And they characterize it a little bit differently. They say, like that Roger was kind of hazing him. That it was a, you know, this is, you're gonna think this is beneath you. Let's see how it goes. And then these people say, like, Tucker took it incredibly seriously, you know, was really good hosts worked hard, diligent, but that it was, in some ways, almost like a test. Are you gonna stoop this low?
Ken LaCorte:I don't know the situation well enough to say that that's wrong. But the best way to hate somebody is not returning his phone calls, and let them stay on his internet site and not pay him a million dollars a year to be on TV and work two days a week. Yeah, or whatever he
Jason Zengerle:was getting a million a year for.
Ken LaCorte:I have no idea. But okay. But it's probably it was, you know, a typical host, even on a on a week. And show like that would probably be earning, you know, between 500,000 and a little over a million depending on Yeah, depending on time and how popular that was. So that's just a rough estimate. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's just a guess.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah. Where did Tucker fit in the New York, Washington, kind of, I don't want to say schism or anything but DeVos. I mean, that seems like there's there was divided inside Fox and DC bureau in New York. I mean, he was physically in DC, obviously, it was in New York on the weekends. Like where where was he and all that or was he not really part of
Ken LaCorte:that he was a I don't know, be I think the New York, the New York DC kind of schism is Probably a little bit more of a media creation than anything, you know, the people down in DC kind of that was more the news side. And so so they often would find themselves. Oh, I can't believe that Hannity slash O'Reilly slash somebody said that stupid thing oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And there was always a little bit of kind of natural tension between those those two things usually the guy or gal who headed up one side of that didn't like the other ones. So the new side was always kind of fighting for the other. And a couple other things. I mean, so the new side thought that, that sometimes that that the opinion people were too fast on on things, they were wrong too often they embarrass people. Roger was often quick to point out that that's where our our audience came from that that's where the money came from. You might not like Bill Riley's over the top statement on X, Y and Z. But it's also the most popular show on Fox News. And that's that's what's driving us. I mean, there was a period of time where Fox News hadn't come to number one in the ratings. And Bill O'Reilly was I mean that there was at least a year or two of that and look like like what we've seen online. I mean, people gravitated away from straight new shows, and towards shows where there were, where their biases and their point of view was confirmed. And that's what's happened in the entire media, right? I mean, we've we've seen, so it's like, we went from a fox where the morning show was had their opinions, there might have been like one opinion, as you show in the middle. And then it was pretty much straight news until you hit the 8pm, our O'Reilly walks in the building. And then it was all opinion on that also had ratings which were substantially higher, both higher, proportionally and higher. Because during the day, most people are at work that some people have TVs on, but when they come home, eat dinner, and then they turn on TV, all of the ratings. So you had a larger audience and a bigger share of things. And so you had people like, you know, like, like Shepard Smith, who was like, okay, and he didn't even you know, he was very at odds with I think the whole concept of that Fox was conservative. And, you know, they look to the right and like, I don't like those guys as much I don't think they're as smart a journalist as me, and they're making twice as much money as me. And that was just very true. And and just again, just like what we've seen happen to you know what the internet's done to the newspaper industry? What radios done is that, you know, it's so I think Tucker certainly rose rode that wave. I mean, you can't name you know, you went to an average person and say, you know, how many hosts can you name at Fox News versus how many straight journalists? I think it's a radical. Yeah, it's a radical difference in that Sure.
Jason Zengerle:No, was Tucker ever considered as a possible replacement for Brit Hume when he when he left like, I know, Barry got the job, obviously. But like, was that I mean, because you know, it seems like in some ways his background would be a good fit for special report.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, you know, you make me feel bad because I worked at this company for 20 years at a pretty high level and and and as I mentioned before, we started my kind of knowledge of the inside Tucker, Tucker machinations are pretty small. So short answer is, I don't know that you know, I doubt that you can get Bill shine to talk to you but Bill Shine would be the you know, Bill shine or podcast. Now I think he's semi retired after
Jason Zengerle:we can we can do this with every Interviewer Was there a point when he was on the morning that we can show that you sort of said okay, like, I can see this going somewhere? I mean, or was it just sort of like a gradual
Ken LaCorte:you know, I think he was always seen as one of the smart people who could do more. Now Now that said, I don't in my position, I never say okay, well, Tucker, slotted for this or this or that? It was things kind of didn't happen that way. But you know, you certainly would say if you if you looked at at the that be level lineup that he was somebody who absolutely could you absolutely could take on more and
Jason Zengerle:or the other people like who fit that bill deck, then I mean, who were sort of his his you know, I
Ken LaCorte:mean, your saw you saw you saw Brett bears solidness, and a lot of that was was you know, if you want to see who the next generation of foxes see who's sub hosting, or I'm sorry, who's guest hosting. So you would see you know, I haven't even watched enough Fox to know
Jason Zengerle:I was thinking Liz Cheney used to self host for Hannity right.
Ken LaCorte:Maybe it's been a while since I've watched it a long time ago. Right. So the sub poster are somebody to look at and, and again, some of the people who are being more and more utilized so I would say that, you know, I mean, certainly the Martha McCallum certainly, you know, you saw it in the Megyn Kelly thing was, it was a perfect example. I mean, you saw when Megan came in, and and, you know, they popped her as a, as a reporter in the DC Bureau, it was pretty clear from the get go that Roger had closer eyes on her to do more. It's because she was getting high profile assignment she was she was getting on TV a lot. And he, he clearly did that to give her street creds, instead of popping her from being a lawyer to being a host, she might not have ever been taken seriously. Because she also had the dual Edged Sword of being beautiful. And and a lot of times you can succeed on TV by being beautiful and kinda smart. But you're not you can't succeed wildly. And she had both. So I, you know, he wanted to make sure, you know, he wanted to make sure that she had some serious credentials before she moved up that ladder because it was going to be better for her square her career. Yeah.
Jason Zengerle:So she's she's a good segue, I guess my next question, which was messaging about 2015 and Trump and Fox? And was it was it hard to get Fox commentators and pundits to take him either to not be hostile towards him or to take him seriously at the outset of the camp and to take Trump seriously at the outset of the campaign.
Ken LaCorte:So I was unusual in this in that I was from the West Coast. And I go in maybe every three weeks into there. And I clearly saw that even among conservatives in Fox, that that kind of Trump's an idiot near Trump's, he's, he's not a serious person, that the chances of him winning the you know, I, how do I say, The New York and DC types were a little slower to realize the power of Donald Trump because they saw it from a beltway and insider perspective where every person they talked to, from pollsters to, to just people who've been around politics, poo pooed, any kind of chances he had, when you're outside of that system and just kind of saw, by squinting your eyes how he was differentiated from, from the the list of candidates from the other candidates he was running against, or how he was how he was starting to resonate with with a lot of Republican voters who didn't read the National Review type type of thing. So I would say that they were probably like everyone in America a little slow to slow to come around to that. Yeah. I think watching him just kind of rise in the polls and kind of shit talk his way into the, into the, into winning that nomination. But But then, there was I know, there's the outside concept that, that like the insiders sat around and would like to try to be Kingmaker and be like, Okay, we're gonna, this is DeSantis, or whatever, this, I never saw any of that even being very, very close to Roger, what, what I did see him is being pretty hands off on on, on primary things, but always believing and knowing that well, once the Republican nominee is known, the rest of the press corps is going to turn into an arm of the Democratic Party, and we're gonna have to be especially fair to this person. So now, you can even call that a bias in its own way. And it is in a sense, I mean, in some ways, sometimes Fox News was the balance, you know, we actually, you know, on the new side, we actually took that fair and balanced slogan very, very seriously, I was disappointed when they dropped it. So I think just give themselves some air from from from Roger Ailes. So, so from a fox position, you know, and you talk to hosts, and I've talked to enough of them, they don't get a whole lot of calls from management. They're saying do this, or don't do that. I mean, they're there. Most of them are given a pretty wide, wide degree of freedom, and aren't being told who to book or what to say. I'm sure there's some exceptions to that. But I'd say especially in the primary, it was just kind of like, let's see what what happens. There was a little bit of there was a belief, I think, on some of the news people that the DC Bureau just didn't like Trump. And, you know, you'd see somebody's kid was working for another candidate, and this and that, and so you had to kind of look at it there. I actually felt that Fox was a little unfair to to Trump in that part of the debate where he went at it with Megan and it's a segue. Yeah, that whole feud. I was, I was I was okay with her question. Right. It was a it was a here's some stuff you said, how do you how do you, you know, she got a little uptight when he joked it off, and she kind of showed that she was a little upset. I had a much bigger problem with the way that Fox News opened that debate, I believe it was the opening question. They said, so all of the so Trump had said, I don't even know if I'm going to support the Republican if he's not a good guy. I mean, you know, trumping Trump. And they opened it up saying All right, everybody, raise your hand if you are I forget whether it was pledged to support the Republican can't and I thought that wasn't a question that was a stunt and that was a sign wasn't designed to make Donald Trump look look out there and stupid. And that's the so in that debate, I remember watching it and being like, you know, that was kind of a dick move because that wasn't something that was trying to say, here are a number of people running for president, let's let's learn about them. But it was trying to say this guy is different. And he's not a real Republican in a in a question like format. So I had a big problem with that. Yeah. And that hurt Megan, in the sense that when she came and asked a darn tough question, then then a lot of Trump supporters were like, you know, what is this, this is getting out of control.
Jason Zengerle:But aside from like, you know, picking the nominee and all, from a programming standpoint, it seemed like Fox had a potential problem in the early days of the campaign, because it didn't seem like there were a lot of people on air, who were saying positive things about Trump and it made for kind of boring segments, like, you know, everybody would sort of agree that it seemed like they were having a hard time finding people to find people who weren't like, blubbering, idiots to come on. And, and be like, either Trump, you know, agnostic, or pro Trump, and not just stridently anti Trump. And I mean, I It seems as if Tucker, in some ways, historic started to rise a little bit because he was, he wasn't pro Trump, but he sort of saw the potential and Trump I think, before a lot of other people did. Certainly other people have Fox and was getting more airtime just because he was not going to trash him.
Ken LaCorte:You know, I could very well be true. I mean, I'm sure there was a big period of time like that. I mean, the flip side was that anytime Trump would call into a show or be a guest, people's writings popped up. Yeah. So and as you know, and one thing that TV hosts are is, you know, they they care about that, that's, that's, you know, that's their bread and butter, they know that, that if their ratings go down, people start to people start to look for their replacements on that. So you know what, and it was clear that when he would come on and do a segment or two, you know, Hannity started giving him segments, and some of the daytime shows show started to and look, and this is why MSNBC and CNN hadn't been talked about it, you know, there became a point of view where, or excuse me a point of time, where even the people who hated Trump were still talking about him 40 minutes out of every hour, because it was clear that that it was good TV, it was it was interesting, and something was going on there. Yeah. And it wasn't really clear. They hated him back then. Yeah, but they talk about him all day. So yeah, no, I
Jason Zengerle:mean, this morning, Joe became the Donald Trump show.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, look, I'm convinced that had the media not become so vitriolic, and have that changed since 2010. To 2016, you know, Trump wouldn't have gotten past 5% of the vote. I mean, I mean, Trump, let's not forget, he ran before and he ran basically is the same guy. And he had so little that nobody cared about him. But the landscape had changed enough that he figured out the secret sauce, and the secret sauce was to say something just stupid enough, are just overboard enough that the people who like me will be that's not what he meant. And the people who hate Me will go bananas. And, you know, he came down that escalator and announced for president and had the singular guts to go after illegal immigration, and then did it in an over the top way. They're not sending the best. There's their son of murderers, rapists done at all. And then the presses reaction to that bounced him from 2% to 8% in the polls, and they never looked back.
Jason Zengerle:Do you think that if, you know CNN and MSNBC hadn't carried like every one of his speeches live that he would have won the nomination? I mean, that's obviously the complaint of the other Republicans that it was you know, the the free media that he was getting?
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, I don't I don't think it was as much that as as as as much they hated him so much that they had to disprove every single thing that he said and and that that they did it in such a ham handed and obvious over the top way that that it created supporters. Example once he was once he was president, he had a bunch of basketball or sports guys over there after they won the big the big national tournament. And he had a any any, I think during a government shutdown, so he ordered in a bunch of fast food and he had and he said, Did you see there was 1000 Hamburgers, they they would have stretched to a mile high? Well, the Washington Post was so uptight about that statement they actually fact checked how many inches per burger there was how many burgers that there were from pictures that they had of multiple angles and how the fact that that was nowhere near a a mile high. And of course, the picture that they had to put on it was Trump beaming with with with some athletes near him and all sorts of burgers. So it was like, at that's the kind of thing that if you like kinda like Trump, even though you might not have loved him, loved him. You saw it and you were like, ah, I'm getting this picture clear no matter what he says they're going to treat it like the Zapruder film. Maybe he's onto something.
Jason Zengerle:Did Tucker's relationship change with Ailes over the course of his time at the network?
Ken LaCorte:You know, I don't really know. I know that Tucker went from from kind of more of a hardcore libertarian in his in his outlook to, I think you would probably call him more of a populist is she type? Is that a fair? I hate? Yeah, he's supposed to libertarian. You know, so, Roger was never a huge fan of libertarians. He had a great line, which I've stolen a few times. He's like, you know, libertarian is great libertarian and libertarians are great, right, until they start rubbing dogshit in their hair. And, and what he meant by that was, this is a philosophy that has some some fundamental, serious things, but then they take it to the nth degree, right? It's a philosophy that says, keep government out of my life as much as possible, but then then they're arguing over well, of course, you shouldn't, you know, of course, you shouldn't purify water before it comes to homes, that should be a that should be a private entity, right? And so, um, that's the problem with libertarianism when you argue it enough, it turns into anarchy. And and so, you know, everybody has to have their own missile launcher, their head to the fine corporations to make their roads and, and and to filter their own water. And, and so he probably rolled his eyes at some of that, but this is all just supposition that this but I never heard him say anything. You know, I never heard him say anything negative about about Tucker, or
Jason Zengerle:when I mean, when the when the shit hit the fan and 2016 with him to Tucker, was he at all involved in sort of the effort to rally support? Was he not part of that? Was he just sort of an afterthought? Like, where does he fit into that whole soap opera?
Ken LaCorte:If he was doing anything on that? I didn't, I didn't see it. I mean, you know, clearly, like, Roger, and some of the insiders were trying to rally. The weird thing about, like, kind of when that exploded and really came to a head was, everybody was out of the office. Everybody was in Cleveland on that. So it was it was a very bizarre time where we're okay, some big stuffs happening, the headquarters where nobody political is, and many executives, if not most, are in Cleveland trying to, I mean, you know, that's, those are like, like, the Super Bowls for the political types. And we spend millions of dollars on that. And you've got hundreds of people out there. And so logistically, and all of that stuff, and then stuff kind of kind of popped pretty darn quickly during during that whole time.
Jason Zengerle:Were you were you in Cleveland that week?
Ken LaCorte:I was I was in Cleveland that way.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah. Well, I mean, what was the moment you realized that that his, his time was over?
Ken LaCorte:You know, look, when when Gretchen came out with her charges, the first reaction from all the insiders was was to scoffed at it, and did not believe it. I didn't believe it. I don't know if I don't know how much of it I believe or not. Gretchen was was widely disliked within Fox News. Just because she was an unpleasant person. She would meet with people and just bitch about Fox from A to Z, not about not about sexual harassment or anything like that. She would she would pass at her show a female contributor who was on her show a lot and thought that they were they were friends Gretchen would come by and she'd Oh, hi, Gretchen. And we're talking in a hallway that's four feet wide. And Gretchen would just put her eyes down and keep going. So she wasn't really a like to figure and Roger was kind of like the dad of Fox News. So the first reaction was disbelief. Reading her, her her filing against against him, didn't really help her cause all that much. She alleged that at some point in an undetermined past that he'd said, If you sleep with me, you'll get a show or won't get a show or something like that. And then it was pretty clear. Pretty clear from an outsider when she started tape recording. You see this all the time when you see a harassment lawsuit against you saw in the O'Reilly and some of this it's like, you know, you see vague allegations and then all of a sudden, you have quotes of text with 100 words here and arms and ahhs and they never say I'm recording them but but it's it's very clear to if you have any experience with that and and nothing that he that he said during that period of time was was actionable. Vegas thing he came up with was saying you know years back you and I should have slept together would have been good for you and good for me. And then other embarrassing things about or maybe embarrassing things about you know, comments about other talent and some things but nothing sexual nothing that would have lost you him a lawsuit he probably would have won or anything like that. I would say that. So so when it came out between her on likability and a lawsuit that you're like, that's out of it, except for one sentence or she said, you know, years back, blah, blah, blah, you know, um, the first kind of, oh, he's this might be a more serious problem was when when Megan wouldn't, you know, when Megan didn't come out and say anything, and she was there and that became obvious. And then I forget whether she came out and actually said that there was something or what it was, they did the News Corp was doing an investigation that was, you know, then getting stuff and turning to the newspapers and leaking it pretty quickly. You know, so that was pretty clear that all right, this is James and locklin's attempt to get Roger outta here. And, and then it moves pretty darn pretty darn fast. So, again, I forget that the timing on on Megan and some of that, but yeah, but they came out and said there were other allegations about blah, blah, blah. And it seemed like it was 24 hours, 48 hours before before. We're all out, you know, out at the campground and in Cleveland, and we've got a new boss. Yeah.
Jason Zengerle:And there's nothing about like Tucker in that whole period that like I don't recall ever thinking of it, or no one necessarily expect him to write. I mean, like the fact that like, you know, I mean, you I think the Hannity and O'Reilly said positive stuff, right.
Ken LaCorte:They might have I know, there was a PR, you know, there was a push to get other women there to say, you know, hey, I haven't experienced any any of this at least, this is like the Kimberley oil. Well, yeah, there was there was there was all that running around. And Roger's wife was in the building and trying to trying to really get support, but that was pretty short lived.
Jason Zengerle:After Roger left, I mean, was there a sense that I mean, obviously, Megan hadn't left yet. O'Reilly still isn't there. I mean, you know, the, the primetime blog still seems like it's pretty cohesive, but you know, her contracts coming up. You don't necessarily know what's gonna happen with O'Reilly and all that. But like, when Roger left it, was there a sense especially with like, rooper coming back in was there an idea that like, Okay, this isn't gonna be the only change, there's going to be, you know, more more shifts in programming or, because, you know, the lineup did change pretty dramatically within, you know, a year after that.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, no, I don't think there was that, that that feeling that was going to come in and revamp it. I think that there was happiness with the senior executives, when, when it was Rupert versus the kids. And Lachlan was kind of a, an unknown entity, right? I mean, he didn't go out and talk about things like that, you know, it was, you know, Lachlan was usually quiet during meetings. So you didn't kind of know as a fox executive, you assume that James just didn't know what it was a fair assumption because his because he or his family or things that they just didn't like Fox News, they were embarrassed by it. His wife was very politically active. The things he said. So James was kind of seen as somebody who had a disdain for Fox News. Not the billion dollars in profit a year that it threw off. But but the product itself, I think, and the daughter, you know, her husband hated Rupert's daughter. Her husband hated Fox News. So I think when when Rupert popped in, I think that there was a okay, we would actually likes, I think watching Fox News and all of that. So there really wasn't a big fear of a big primetime lineup change. And to be honest, that was really never a how do I say Roger, Roger had an uncanny ability to keep a team paranoid and working hard even when they were winning in a in a crazily big way. We were earning, you know, we were earning I think we were netting about 1.2 billion a year when I left in in 16. Roger you know, but but yet we'd have 1% 2% where we'd have to would have to clamp down on costs or there was always you know, he was always driving Driving driving but at a certain point I think people in the back of their head knew the way this lineup works you know, we could lose an O'Reilly we could you lose a Hannity you know that Fox News is success that they had found an audience that let's be honest, was about half of a little bit more than half of the cable news audience and there was one entity us and then on the other side was was the guys on the left and they were dividing up the other pie. So you know, I've used the analogy a lot. And it wasn't like people were resting on their laurels. But if you live in a city and there are two kinds of restaurant and people are split on the like hamburgers or hot dogs and you're the only hot dog cellar in town, you're gonna get about 50% of the audience and if you look almost ratings you know after elections they pop up and down Fox News is getting about half of half of that which means it's getting twice as much as CNN or MSNBC on a on a on a typical ratings ratings
Jason Zengerle:Bob. Was there ever anyone you thought was bigger than Fox News? Like at the height of their popularity, the height or they mean whether it was back or O'Reilly or I mean, I don't know Hannity
Ken LaCorte:Have you? No, no, because when they disappeared, they all seem to disappear. Yeah. So you know, Hannity I'm sorry. The one who came closest to that was back. Yeah. So look Beck was another good example of you had a show on the competitors and he couldn't find 15 Viewers he came, and back came into an interesting hour because he came into the blue. I forget which hour it was, it was an hour that we always it was always a dip in our in our primary.
Jason Zengerle:Was it six, it could be wrong.
Ken LaCorte:It might have been, might have been and you don't look back was one of those guys, that was half crazy. And those are the most interesting people to watch, because because they have some crazy wild theories, then they have some normal theories that are kind of out there. And then once in a while 20% of their theories they'll have and they'll be the only ones in America talking about it. And they'll be right. And it's like that's in you know, you like having people like that. The other thing that Beck did is he understood the visual pneus of television in a way that none of our other hosts did. Here's Glenn Beck putting putting a fish into a blender and dead fish into a blender and making a salmon shake or crying or rubbing shit on his face. I mean, you know, he Oh, I'd be working in my office and I can't tell how many times I look up at the TV and I'd have all the sound off. It's like, turn it on and do that. So, so Beck, certainly back believed he was bigger than Fox News. And and I could say there there became an unhappiness when it was clear that Beck believed he was bigger than Fox News. And he was using Fox News to create the Beck enterprises, right. I mean, he had still had his radio show. He had his TV show, he did his radio show all out of another another building another office. He had executives who are kind of his own guy, as the.com head. He used to drive me crazy, because, you know, we were always the we were always the redheaded stepchild within Fox News. All right, we could get a billion clicks, but but we still, I don't think I ever earn dollar wise, more than 3% 4% of foxes bottom line. So you know, I'd be busting my ass and Rajat, say, you know, if I put another ad in a Riley, it beats your budget. All he had to do was one more commercial, and that would make more money. So yeah, I know. But when Beck created his own new site, and then started pushing people to go to that own new site, from his thing, I, you know, I know I screamed, and it was like, What the fuck, you know, it's like, we got we're using our air to create a competitor out of here. And I think that there was a mutual is a long, long answer to a short question. But that was the only one who kind of had a broader vision of becoming something bigger, as opposed to just a host, and tried to do it. But he also, you know, when vectus disappeared off, you know, when he went did his own thing. You saw the power of the distribution of Fox News. And it was like, who's Glenn Beck where whatever happened to that guy?
Jason Zengerle:Yeah, yeah. Well, that was I mean, people told me that something that ails would remind the talent of quite frequently, when they started getting a little uppity. I don't know, just, you know, making demands maybe that he didn't want to meet, he would sort of remind them that, you know, the radio show that you have is doing so well will be nothing if you don't have, you know, the nighttime TV show to to bolster it. And like, you know, that just, that was something he was good.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah. Remind people that's like, and how many people would are buying your next? You're writing a book every four months, and you're pimping it on? On Air? How many books do you think you'd sell if you didn't have a Fox News Channel on that? So like, on on one hand, Fox was very generous to its to its employees. And certainly it's hosted on air people who paid well, they treated them well. Roger was there to back you up, you know, even in the Megan thing, where, where Donald Trump's coming after Fox. I mean, no other boss would have backed her up, like Roger did in those days. And she learned that lesson when she went down MSNBC or NBC. And then it was like, what and she said something that was eminently reasonable, but somebody could call him racist if they say everything is racist, and they fired him because of it. But on the other hand, you know, talent on your talent is that can be nuts, and they're always looking up and bigger and better. And they all want to be making twice as much money and they all want to have the eight o'clock slot and have all these things. So sometimes you had to kind of, you know, even though they were being treated well, they needed to be reminded of that. And he was also a could speak to them in very realistic terms.
Jason Zengerle:Is, is Tucker bigger than Fox now?
Ken LaCorte:I don't think any of these guys are. I
Jason Zengerle:see as big as backless or bigger.
Ken LaCorte:I think he's bigger. But but I don't get the sense. But I mean, you know, what Tucker is not doing is now starting his own media brand. Um, he actually, I believe got out of the entire management of Daily Caller. He's not doing his radios thing he's not, you know, he's not trying to create the Tucker Carlson empire.
Jason Zengerle:But they've given him an empire. Right? I mean, with the Dale the with the fox nation stuff, and he has his own documentary unit. He, I mean, it's all within Fox. But yeah, I
Ken LaCorte:don't know if I called having some things there and an empire, but something, but But you know, but again, the only difference is so so yeah, I mean, I mean, if I'm Fox News, I try to I try to get our number one or one of our very top talents on is it try to use as much stuff as you can from them? If I were Fox, I would have started my own book imprint there and said, Okay, well, you can't promote any book book unless you unless it's published by the Fox News Channel publishing company. What Why don't we get a piece of this? Yeah. So no, I look, I I suspect Tucker has a comfortable relationship. I hear that he is not, you know, they're not going in and saying talk about this or don't talk about that, again, the amount of freedom that hosts are given, it's not unlimited. I mean, if they started saying just crazy shit or untrue things or things that were embarrassing the network, you know, certain point, they're gonna have some problems. But I suspect that he's, I suspect that they like his ratings and the different kinds of journalism and different point of view that he brings there, because it's, you know, it's not the traditional, it's very different than than O'Reilly and some of the traditional types and, and, you know, as much as people bellyache about the channel, being the only conservative thing out there and distorting the truth and whatnot, it's like, it's kind of rare to you know, how many channels on all of cable would you see one host and another host back to back have very different concepts on what America's role with the Ukraine war should be? You didn't see anything except pure unanimity and every other single thing and to have Tucker say, Well, wait a second, let's look at this from a different angle, I think is good for the channel, probably good for the country, and and seems to be working, you think Ailes
Jason Zengerle:would have given him a show? The primetime show, or Well, seven o'clock, and then eventually print on that it's sort of like a great alternative history. Right. Like, it fails stay. Yeah.
Ken LaCorte:You know. I mean, the easy answer is yes, of course. You know, I don't know. You know, I know he liked them. He put them on, you know, he put them on two hours a day on our you know, yeah, he gave him gave him a show and popped him up there. And Roger was pretty smart. So
Jason Zengerle:it wasn't an obvious move. Like when you I mean, you were gone by that point. But like when when you saw that he was getting moved up? Was that like, oh, yeah, I can see that.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, it wasn't an obvious like, even though, how do I say I didn't really think about it beforehand. But when you heard of it, you're like, okay, that kind of makes sense. So it wasn't like one of those obvious moves. It was like, Oh, everybody knew that when if this happened, that Tucker would come up from here, it wasn't obvious in that sense, at least to me, who was then an outsider at that point. But when I heard it, I wasn't surprised at all. You know, again, the guy had now a lot of live TV under him. He had multiple shows in the past. He smart guy, it's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. So probably pretty good at that.
Jason Zengerle:I mean, also, I mean, the Trump has just won. I mean, how much did that factor into your thinking about it? I mean, I know, I will do the reporting on people who are still there, obviously. But when you saw that, did you did you view it at all through a Trump lens?
Ken LaCorte:You know, no, because I mean, politicians come and go, and even Trump, you know, someday, Trump's not going to be not going to be somebody that they talk about a lot. I don't think you I don't think you hire a lineup, especially with somebody fairly young is Tucker, because of one president or not, I think, I think you know, you probably want like, like, in any kind of balance that you're looking to achieve. You wouldn't want an entire an entire lineup of people who hated a candidate or who loved a candidate. But I don't, I think it would be far. It would be unlikely that somebody was like, Okay, that's a serious factor in any consideration to put somebody into into, you know, arguably one of the most important slots if Fox News.
Jason Zengerle:Yeah. All right. I don't think I have any more questions for you.
Ken LaCorte:So I have my theory on what happened to the to the news. entities from let's say 2005. To now. What's your theory on, on on? Why the news is, is is is losing credibility is all becoming more, you know, more is all becoming more partisan. Sometimes, you know, even some great institutions have become completely partisan and shedding their and still riding on the coattails of their past success and impression. What do you think's going on?
Jason Zengerle:I think the decline of local news is a pretty, pretty big driver and a lot of this. I mean, I think especially when it comes to people distrusting the media, I think it's a lot harder to just trust something that's much closer to you. I mean, obviously, you know, people in various cities and towns would disagree with their paper or whatever, but, but they did actually know who the journalists were. I mean, they encountered them, you know, in their regular lives. And I think it was a lot more difficult for them to completely demonize or stereotype or just write them off, even if they were writing something they didn't disagree with, like they, they had enough familiarity with them, they're close enough to the ground that you could disagree with it, but you didn't think it was completely manufactured or written, you know, with, with a totally partisan viewpoint. And it's much easier to view things that are much further away that way, I think. And I just think in terms of distrust of journalists in general. I mean, I think, look, there's obviously always been, you know, people who don't like short lists and don't like the press, it's gotten a
Ken LaCorte:lot lot worse in the last couple years.
Jason Zengerle:I mean, I think local news has really declined in the last, you know,
Ken LaCorte:about a trip from local news. So that's my I mean,
Jason Zengerle:that's my pet theory. I just I when I think about the degree to which people just distrust journalists, I think a lot of it does have to do with that, because the journalists they're encountering are people they don't encounter in any other circumstance, except when they're being written about or covered or watching or reading it. They don't see them in any other role. Because, you know, they're,
Ken LaCorte:they're not I never met any local journalists, when you you live in Los Angeles, you never meet, it's still a city of 2 million. Yeah, it's
Jason Zengerle:a big city. I mean, I mean, more like, you know, Waterloo, Iowa, or, indeed, these kinds of places where I think you get a lot of the distrust. I mean, you know, and you as a reporter who parachutes into these places. I think you you encounter it, in a way. I mean, I that's, it's probably not a satisfying answer. But I do think there's a lot to do with it.
Ken LaCorte:I'm a big believer that the media has earned its distrust. Yeah. That. And again,
Jason Zengerle:I think the media is a very
Ken LaCorte:big, it is a broad, but I will say the national media, who? Look, I'll use the New York Times as an example. I mean, the New York Times always skewed liberal. I mean, they've never endorsed a Republican candidate, I believe in the history of the newspaper.
Jason Zengerle:Now, that's not true. There must have been some point. I'm sure they didn't
Ken LaCorte:like McKinley or something in there. For President endorsed for president, yeah, I'm sure they found some lefty local guy. And and, and I guess the reason why I'm so critical of the times is because they they were so good. And I and they are the I mean, look, when fox came in, you kind of knew they skewed from the right, it was and I don't have any problem with the Huffington Post. I don't have any problem with with the Village Voice. I mean, papers who are and media outlets who come in and say, Hey, we're partisan on the side. I don't have any problem with Rachel Maddow or Tucker Carlson. It's like, I know, I'm not getting a nuanced and balanced view here. Right. I'm getting a I'm getting a side it was. It was the large newspapers, it was and that includes the Washington Post The LA Times, it was all the networks and CNN we saw their their shift. And what I saw at least was it was competition. It was for years and years and years, these papers had virtual monopolies, the the network's had monopolies they didn't really care who was who was on, you know, they, they had the exact same shows at CBS, NBC and ABC News while we were growing up, you squint your eyes and Tom Brokaw looks the same as Dan Rather looks the same as Peter Jennings they have the same a block and where I kind of saw coming off the rails was when the internet well Fox News certainly going into Fox News going into a cable system and and saying we're presenting many points of view from a conservative point of view through you know, I mean, CNN had a had a monopoly for years they didn't have to they didn't have to strive really hard to go after a sub audience and and they tried to stay that kind of neutral thing and here comes up MSNBC, and now CNN is in third and then they just said, Fuck it Donald Trump's an evil Purple Man, excuse me, Orange Man. And and they did that. And it helped their ratings while he was while he was in there.
Jason Zengerle:I mean, I very much disagree with you about the times. And I'm not just saying that, you know, I mean, I read for the magazine. So like, but for what but I think I disagree with that. I completely agree with you about about CNN. And I think and that's where I think you need to distinguish in the media between especially Cable News and Newspapers and the like. I think I think what cable news has been over the last six years is very, I think we probably see I don't know.
Ken LaCorte:Yeah, I just think that the major newspapers of the country have become to a a Earl Grey tea. version of that, where, where they they don't use that kind of vitriol, but they have put away the concept of fairness and balance to achieve political to achieve politics in their straight reporting. Yeah, that's it. That's a two hour conversation. Yeah. Maybe someday we'll have over over over a cuppa. But again, I will, as I said, we shouldn't have to defend huge institutions who do good things and bad things every day. But But
Jason Zengerle:sure, no, I get it. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think there's something also as well, I mean, there's a little bit of chicken and egg thing, but the sort of the nationalization of the parties and the nationalization of news, I think, has it? I think it I don't know it, it increases the sort of the polarization and the partners partisanship of the news media on these channels. I think, you know, everybody's sort of looking at it through this national lens. Now, there are no more kind of local issues. And that drives the, you know, something like CNN program the way it did. I mean, I guess it's maybe not programming that way anymore. I'm not really sure what they're doing. But certainly during the soccer era, I mean, I just, I, I never really like I don't watch that much TV, which is sort of ironic that I'm writing this book. But I remember like, when Don Lemon became, I missed the memo that Don Lemon had become a serious figure. I just didn't, I didn't know I would one night, I was watching CNN, and they handed it off to him. I was like, I didn't realize he was like, a resistance figure. Now I had no idea. That's the
Ken LaCorte:way they become? Well, look, you have a you have a tremendous amount of power in your in your book. It's one of similar to somebody, right? Who is the director of a documentary, you're going to talk for four hours inside of somebody's head, and you get to say every word and you look, you're gonna have many choices in that to say, you know, what I would tell my reporters out when I when I had a team of reporters, I would say, Look, we're going after these stories that that we believe the other guys don't cover and our audience wants to hear. And this is great. I always said give the other guys their best shot, give both sides their best shot, and you can't go wrong in your journalism. And I'm not sure all journalists, I don't believe that most journalists do that anymore. I think that they write the story in the headline before they go in. And then they they interviewed one side and they give the best shot, they interview the side the bad side, and they take something stupid, they said which is and that's now become a style of journalism, that is totally acceptable. But you have a I think a unique opportunity to, to not do a hit job on a guy but to actually do something nuanced. I would be interested if you could produce a book that even people who watch his show would read and be like, Oh, that was interesting. And it was relatively fair. If you could do that it would probably be thrown out of your out of your out of your company. I don't think I would be thrown out of my they'll just stop talking to you and they'll go on their slack things and say that you're a racist. I do. Look, I appreciate this. If you ever want to chat in the future. Feel free.
Jason Zengerle:Thanks a lot. Let's do it.
